My New Small Scale Combo Still

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Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Just a couple more pics of the unfilled coil winding. Rewound it yesterday trying a couple of methods over at my friend's shop after work. I ended up making a winding rig and we filled the coil with salt that we vibrate packed into the coil. It went absolutely BEAUTIFUL! I'll try to get some pics up in a little bit.

Seaside
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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Wow, Seaside, not sure how you got the inner wall of that coil to collapse to that extent... Something just doesn't look right and I doubt that it is the copper that is to blame... How is it ending up with the such rough dark pitting on the inner surface...???
Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

RAD,

I took a look at the unfilled coil again, and what you're seeing is actually some of the blackened copper "soot" or "flake" from the annealing. I can wipe it right off with my finger.

Here are some pics of the new coil. I am very happy with the way that this turned out after annealing, filling with salt, and using a winder that I made. I just can't imagine that I would ever do it again any other way. All of the tubing for the coil remained at full diameter. We were even able to bend the tubing and make the "cold finger" go up through the coil without any cutting and soldering.

There is one thing I would do differently, and that is to radius the end of the iron pipe that was used for the winder. When they made the pipe it was just simply reamed at the end after cutoff, which left a pretty sharp edge. We didn't notice this when we were forming the "cold finger" portion. There are two or three slight nicks because of this, and that could have been avoided if the end of the pipe had been radiused.
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Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

A few more pics and the "custom" winder that I made using a vice, an old u-joint trunnion, a piece of 1/2" steel pipe, a 1/2" pipe cap, and a pair of vice grips. LOL. :roll: Not real pretty, but it worked very well.

The hardest part of all of this was filling the tubing with salt after the annealing, and then later getting it back out again. The actual winding took maybe 20 minutes going slow and steady, and was actually kinda fun. My friend was feeding the filled tubing into the winder, and I was turning the handle (vice-grips) and drawing it in. It went so smoothly and easily that I decided to keep going and wind 10 inches of coil instead of 6 or 7 inches like I had originally planned. :D

To get the salt in the tubing fully, we ended up vibrating the tubing along its length with the covered ratcheting head of an air ratchet. Once the salt began to come out of the other end we crimped it off and continued to vibrate and pack the length of the tubing with the salt. (Making sure that the salt is fully packed in the tubing is, I think, the key here.) Once it was completely full, we crimped off the other end and attached it to the winder. After we were done winding, we again used vibration and compressed air to get the salt out. Even when we were getting some air flow using 175 psi of air pressure, the salt would not fully dislodge. We ended up running hot water into the tubing to help dissolve the salt and then the the air pressure did the rest.

Definitely a two person job doing it this way, but I'm much happier with the end result.

Seaside
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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Much better results, Seaside... However, I think you could get the same results by simply winding the new coiled copper, without uncoiling, annealing, and salting, by using your winding jig... At any rate that condenser should serve you well for many years... Glad you kept at it until you succeeded...
cannonman
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by cannonman »

rad14701 wrote:Small at only 1.25 inch... I was adding more info while you were posting...
Hello rad 14701. love the small size of the still. This might be the one for me too as i only do small scale stuff. I get the idea of coiling the copper for the condencor but, in one photo it looks like there is a loop at the bottom of the coils and in another there is nothing. What is this?? I am a little confused on this part.
The rubber seal from the dish drainer do you use it and use the flour paste together or just the flour paste and clean it every time you use it??
More info: all your pictures had not uploaded yet. I see how the end results are. looks great.
Is there a cap on top of the coils to keep the steam in. on top of the stack.
cannonman
Last edited by cannonman on Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

cannonman wrote:
rad14701 wrote:Small at only 1.25 inch... I was adding more info while you were posting...
Hello rad 14701. love the small size of the still. This might be the one for me too as i only do small scale stuff. I get the idea of coiling the copper for the condencor but, in one photo it looks like there is a loop at the bottom of the coils and in another there is nothing. What is this?? I am a little confused on this part.
The rubber seal from the dish drainer do you use it and use the flour paste together or just the flour paste and clean it every time you use it??
cannonman
The other coil was wound with the intention of using a cold finger down the center but that condenser has not been completed yet...

The rubber seal was on the outside of the still, with flour paste on the inside, so no alcohol ever came into contact with the rubber... The rubber seal has since been replaced twice, first with a wooden ring and then with a piece of hemp rope after the wood ring cracked... I have also considered using a ring made of 1/4" copper tube...
Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

RAD,

The first attempt WAS with new coiled 1/4" copper tubing. I didn't unwind it for the first, second, or third attempts. The first coil in the pics above was my second attempt from the factory rolled coil, with me shaping and forming it by hand around a mandrel. We annealed it again for a "feed and wind" attempt though, and it was obvious from the start that we were going to have the same results (or worse) as I had gotten a day or two before. My friend Kevin shrugged, said to me "Why don't you just wind it out of stainless and be done with it?", and looked at me like I was an idiot. LOL I laughed and told him that I had the same thought the day before, but that copper was a better conductor of heat, and that he and I should definitely be able to do this with as much tubing as we have both formed and shaped. That got him, and I knew I had his help with this until we got it figured out. :D We had to unwind it out of it's packaged coil shape so that we could get the salt to flow downward into the straight slope of the tubing, but we annealed it again once it was in that shape, so it was pretty soft as we started winding it. (We annealed it before we started filling it with the salt.)

I decided to do the Sweet Feed whiskey recipe for my first wash and I have a 5 Gal. bucket of it that just finished fermenting two days ago. (Smelled nice too.) What do you suggest for this setup in Pot Still mode? No lower extension at all? Any scrubbers or marbles?

thanks,

Seaside
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Seaside wrote:I decided to do the Sweet Feed whiskey recipe for my first wash and I have a 5 Gal. bucket of it that just finished fermenting two days ago. (Smelled nice too.) What do you suggest for this setup in Pot Still mode? No lower extension at all? Any scrubbers or marbles?
I'd run in pot still mode with no lower extension and either no packing or just a thin layer of marbles...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by stilldizzy »

Rad, curious, I read the whole post and didn't see this unless I am blind. But what did you use to cut the hole into the top of the mixing bowl to mount the sink drain with? And how hard was it for that size whole and that size drain?
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

stilldizzy wrote:Rad, curious, I read the whole post and didn't see this unless I am blind. But what did you use to cut the hole into the top of the mixing bowl to mount the sink drain with? And how hard was it for that size whole and that size drain?
I drilled enough small holes to be able to use tin snips as I recall... But I started just inside of where the finished hole would be and cut my way out so the hole would not be rough... Only took a few minutes...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by stilldizzy »

Thanks Rad. The last time I tried to drill out and cut a hole in a stainless keg, it was a pain in the ass. Then I saw the links and posts about using the rings instead of cutting the hole. But thats ok. I can still use that keg as a boiler with a sink drain and bowl attatched to it as well. How do you feel about using a keg with the top cut out as a carboy? Fill it with wash and put a cheese cloth over it and ferment the old fashioned way? Or is it best to get a plastic drum? Good old Popcorn Sutton didn't need much. huh?
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

stilldizzy, I feel that cutting the top out of a keg is a waste of a perfectly good boiler... It's one thing to do it if you need a mashing pot, but I would never suggest it simply for use as a fermenter/carbouy... Food grade plastic is fine for fermenting...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by stilldizzy »

You are so very right. I didn't realize what I was doing and endend up F'n up a great keg. But Like I said I can still put a bowl on it with a sink drain and use it. All f this happened when I thought I knew something about distilling. Live and learn. But that mistake will not ever happen again. But other wise, my new invented mash will be ready to run Thurs. and I will let you know what I come up with.
myles
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by myles »

Stilldizzy do not worry. It is an offshoot from mainstream, but I honestly believe there is underused potential in cutting the top out of a keg.

Ignore all the bollocks of stainless bowls etc, etc. For true potential the answer is dead obvious. Chop the top out of your keg and fit a copper plate.

Do it any way you like. Bolts and cork gaskets will work, silver solder will too, tig welding might work for some, or compression with a PTFE gasket.

Take your choice. Is there a market for a stainless keg / copper top hybrid boiler? DAMN RIGHT, I just can't be bothered to market it.

My current build is a stainless 100 litre keg boiler feeding a copper thumper, then copper all the way to the condenser. Best of both worlds? I think so.
stilldizzy
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by stilldizzy »

Is there a market for a stainless keg / copper top hybrid boiler? DAMN RIGHT, I just can't be bothered to market it.
My current build is a stainless 100 litre keg boiler feeding a copper thumper, then copper all the way to the condenser. Best of both worlds? I think so.

Do tell......... I would like to know more about this idea. I CAN be bothered with this..and want to be. But this is Rad's thread. Email me or create a new post and we will talk about this. I have many plans and I am working on several projects now.
cannonman
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by cannonman »

Rad - I took your advise and i will be building a new small scale still with 1 1/2" x 1" reducers and a 1" throat and a 1 1/2" condensor head. Maybe 10" tall head and coil just under that size. Question though, I have seen that some stills have a cap on the top of there condensor. Do you cap this one or leave it open for some steam to escape?? I should be assembling it this week end. I am picking up my 1 1/2" pipe from granger today. I need to find a bowl today too.
Thanks for all that you do here.
Cannonman
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

cannonman wrote:Rad - I took your advise and i will be building a new small scale still with 1 1/2" x 1" reducers and a 1" throat and a 1 1/2" condensor head. Maybe 10" tall head and coil just under that size. Question though, I have seen that some stills have a cap on the top of there condensor. Do you cap this one or leave it open for some steam to escape?? I should be assembling it this week end. I am picking up my 1 1/2" pipe from granger today. I need to find a bowl today too.
Thanks for all that you do here.
Cannonman
A cap is not required on any reflux still other than a CM column... The reflux condenser should always be capable of knocking down 100% of the vapor sent up the column... If vapor escapes it is an indicator that there is either not enough coolant flow or too much heat input... Even is a cap is used it should have a vent hole in it so pressure doesn't build up, turning your still into a bomb... Make the condenser coil before you cut the top section to length, just to be safe...
cannonman
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by cannonman »

Thanks Rad- will do. I love this sight... :lol: :eugeek: :oops: 8)
Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Got my RAD Combo Still finished up last week. Did a water run, vinegar run, and then finally got a chance to run the Sweet Feed last night. It went pretty well I think.

I made a slanted "hat" or "umbrella" instead of a slant "plate" to keep it up off of the reduction tube opening and allow for plenty of flow. Decided to make a Liebig that screws onto the output valve, and that knocked the hot distillate down from between 175F - 200F at the valve to 58F at the outlet. Inlet water temp was at 53F, so I was pretty happy with that. I also have a parrot in the works, but I'm waiting for the copper dish I bought for the base to get here. Of course now I have more questions. :D Most are about the run, and I'm not sure if I should ask here or somewhere else.

Seaside
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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Looking good, Seaside...

I use a couple different length column sections so I can use different packed columns depending on how I want my spirits to turn out... I can go from straight pot still mode right up to 24+ inches of packed column...

I've got the itch to run mine but don't have a wash going... But now that the holidays are over with I'll be putting a few down ASAP...

Neat idea you came up with for the reflux deflector...
Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Used a piece of 12ga copper wire on the through tube to promote swirling and increase surface area. The inlet and outlet water lines are positioned to stream the water in the same circular swirling motion as the wire is twisted in.

Got 136 proof (68 % ABV) on the heads after the foreshots, and finished the tails at about 65 proof (32.5 % ABV). Each container holds about 150ML. I think I did it right. It took about 6 hours from start to finish. Does that sound right? Smells great and most of it tastes pretty good too. There's definitely a lot of flavor in the tails, and I need to learn how to blend properly.

thanks,

Seaside
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Rargh
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Rargh »

I dont think this has been answered anywhere.

Going to the original design when you convert to and from pot/reflux mode do you just assemble the copper joint ('slot') together and that is a sufficient seal? Does vapor not escape if its not sealed?

Thanks in advance
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Rargh wrote:I dont think this has been answered anywhere.

Going to the original design when you convert to and from pot/reflux mode do you just assemble the copper joint ('slot') together and that is a sufficient seal? Does vapor not escape if its not sealed?

Thanks in advance
All un-soldered joints get sealed with flour paste just as the bowl gets sealed to the pot with flour paste...
Rargh
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Rargh »

Cheers

You have just saved me £25 each on compression fittings!
O'Mahony
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by O'Mahony »

I have enjoyed this thread and am on the front side of building this basic design and look forward to seeing how she will run. I have gathered & cut material for a 2" column using 2" X 1.25" reducing bushings. My intent is to minimize the distance between the the couplers.......shorten the venturi.

The 2" condenser shell will (hopefully) fit a 1/4" double wound coil that will accept a 3/4" cold finger down the middle. I would like to keep this condenser heigth as short practical and also the packable column heigth. I want to keep the overall heigth at a minimum and still get good performance. So compact verses performance..........thinking, probably end up with a 24 - 30" packable column?

I would be pleased to hear thoughts / opinions as to how many feet of 1/4" copper is needed in a condenser coil to knock down the vapor a 2" column will generate? Also experiences with shorter column heigth and its ability at product purity. Cheers, O'Mahony
cannonman
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by cannonman »

Seaside wrote:Used a piece of 12ga copper wire on the through tube to promote swirling and increase surface area. The inlet and outlet water lines are positioned to stream the water in the same circular swirling motion as the wire is twisted in.

Got 136 proof (68 % ABV) on the heads after the foreshots, and finished the tails at about 65 proof (32.5 % ABV). Each container holds about 150ML. I think I did it right. It took about 6 hours from start to finish. Does that sound right? Smells great and most of it tastes pretty good too. There's definitely a lot of flavor in the tails, and I need to learn how to blend properly.

thanks,

Seaside
Seaside- I may have missed it but what is the size of copper did you use for this liebeg. Is it 1/2" or 3/4" ? I have seen alot of other designs and yours looks pretty cool.
My take off is coming out too hot with some steam and I need to cool it down. You can find my rig under my posts if you want to see what I have. Look for cannonman. I have pictures on my post of my rig. Same design as Rads small appartment still. I used 1 1/2" x 1" reducers though. I am also planning to make a parrot and order an alcometer asap. too.
Cannonman
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by trisw »

Ive been studying this board and the interwebs for some time now, trying to absorb a lot of this information for this wonderful art. This thread is one of the most intriguing, insightful, and informative one Ive come across. I was telling my wife, maybe it was the accumulation of all the information coming together, but a lot of whats been said in here is making complete sense and I believe Ive come upon my ideas for a rig and want to thank the OP.

Thank you
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by el-zonko »

Rad, I love this design. So simple. I've been sizing up different still designs and this seems a good candidate for me.

There's some things that I don't quite understand. Forgive me if they've already been answered, just point me in the right direction.

When you say:
"When running in reflux mode the upper reducer is calibrated to hold only one ounce of condensate before overflowing back into the column."

How do you calibrate that?

And:
"I use a loose slant plate to deflect condensate from going directly back down the column which allows easy cleaning..."

I've seen slant plate designs, where the plates are soldered in, but what's a "loose slant plate" and how is it fitted into the column?

Another thing, did you ever report on the performance of this column in terms of abv and purity of distillate.

Thanks

Zonko.
My life is really taking up too much distilling time!
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

el-zonko wrote:Rad, I love this design. So simple. I've been sizing up different still designs and this seems a good candidate for me.

There's some things that I don't quite understand. Forgive me if they've already been answered, just point me in the right direction.

When you say:
"When running in reflux mode the upper reducer is calibrated to hold only one ounce of condensate before overflowing back into the column."

How do you calibrate that?
To calibrate it I slid the 3/4" pipe up through the reducer, poured in one ounce of water, slid the 3/4 down until it was at the overflow point, and marked it by scribing a line at the bottom of the reducer so I could duplicate the insertion distance before soldering...
el-zonko wrote:"I use a loose slant plate to deflect condensate from going directly back down the column which allows easy cleaning..."

I've seen slant plate designs, where the plates are soldered in, but what's a "loose slant plate" and how is it fitted into the column?
There is a picture of the "loose" slant plate in this topic somewhere... It really isn't "loose", it just isn't soldered into place... It has tension on it so it doesn't fall out... You could just as easily use a trimmed down 3/4" T fitting instead of the slant plate... My plate has worked so I've never replaced it with a T...
el-zonko wrote:Another thing, did you ever report on the performance of this column in terms of abv and purity of distillate.
I can get 95% out of this small rig at 1 - 2 drips per second using all of my column extensions filled with SS scrubbers... I can use the head and about a dozen marbles and get 88% - 90% with the needle valve... Or I can remove the needle valve and run just the head and do either stripping or spirit runs... I just pulled off 1.5 liters of 140 proof yesterday from a gallon of All Bran and almost a gallon of feints... Plus 100ml of foreshots, roughly 200ml of heads, and about 500ml of tails...

Hope this helps...
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