My New Small Scale Combo Still

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

CooknBrew wrote:ok, thank you. So I am thinking to get a sheet of cork and cut a gasket out of it for the drain area. Sound good?
You need to make sure you get musical instrument grade cork rather than composition cork sheet... Don't use automotive gasket cork or other composition types because you don't know what bonding agent was used during the manufacture of the product...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by CooknBrew »

oh, wow, I sure am glad you said that! :shock: I was on my way to get the automotive kind now. Thanks for the help!
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by crazyk78 »

Gee Rad, I didn't know that either.

Your probably better off getting a rubber then aren't you?
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

crazyk78 wrote:Gee Rad, I didn't know that either.

Your probably better off getting a rubber then aren't you?
No rubber or plastics anywhere that comes into contact with high temperature high proof alcohol...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by drunkmore »

rad14701 wrote:
crazyk78 wrote:Gee Rad, I didn't know that either.

Your probably better off getting a rubber then aren't you?
No rubber or plastics anywhere that comes into contact with high temperature high proof alcohol...
Ive often seen this and do follow it but every time i see it i wonder, what do the "profesional distilers" licenced ones, the ones that sell to every day people useon their stills to seal the spots we use flour paiste for?
And if they can get it ...Why cant we?
:shock: or are they just poisoning people and cos its under "safe limits" its ok
I think I should post this some where else to see what answers come of it.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Good question, drunkmore... In all of the pictures and videos of professional distilleries I haven't seen any questionable materials being used... At least not any of the major name brand distilleries... But, then again, even if they did use a borderline material they would probably consider the vast amounts of spirits passing through them as "acceptable risk"... I would hope that is isn't the case, but you never know... But, considering how we take pride in doing better than the commercial distilleries, we take safety into extra consideration, knowing that we do small run batches and we tend to share our spirits with friends and loved ones... We aren't dealing with nameless, faceless, consumers located perhaps a half a world away...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by ScottishBoy »

Ive often seen this and do follow it but every time i see it i wonder, what do the "profesional distilers" licenced ones, the ones that sell to every day people useon their stills to seal the spots we use flour paiste for?
And if they can get it ...Why cant we?
or are they just poisoning people and cos its under "safe limits" its ok
I think I should post this some where else to see what answers come of it.
Because of the economy of scale and the fact that most still makers ( professional ones) use precision machining, there really isnt so much of a need for paste sealants. When you can flange mount an 18 inch wide copper plate to a boiler top you can afford the luxury of things like planed joints or even threaded receptacles made out of brass etc, but with the lining made of copper. They go together well because the price on these babies is astronomical.
So there really isnt anything that they plug it with. All of their cost is up front in precision machined parts and specialized connectors.
But...I bet some older distillers could mention a few ways they did it when they couldnt get replacement parts.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Windigo »

Nice thread. I really find your still interesting and it sure gives me ideas since I have 20ft of 3/4" copper pipe. Has anyone ever tried making a column with multiple pipes? Maybe 2 to 4 columns going to 1 condenser? Just curious.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by LWTCS »

Windigo wrote:Nice thread. I really find your still interesting and it sure gives me ideas since I have 20ft of 3/4" copper pipe. Has anyone ever tried making a column with multiple pipes? Maybe 2 to 4 columns going to 1 condenser? Just curious.
Been discussed.

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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Too much surface to packing for proper reflux, as well as the path of least resistance issue LWTCS mentioned...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Windigo »

Thanks for the info on that, I figured that there must be a reason for using the larger diameter pipe and it occured to me at work today that the surface area of the columns would be a problem with the reflux.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Austin Nichols »

Rad,

What is the distance from top to bottom of the two reducers on your still ?

Would you do anything different if you built this again?

Cheers.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

I'm not sure exactly how tall the reflux throat section is without measuring and I can't do that until tomorrow... What I do know is that I only left enough space between the two reducers to allow for easy soldering and so the upper reducer only had enough center tube slid through to allow for a one ounce collection cup before overflowing as reflux... The remaining center tube that extends into the lower reducer handles the reflux centering...

For a larger diameter column I would allow for a larger reflux collection cup as well as using a larger center tube to eliminate the possibility of choking and flooding... For a 1.5" column I'd go with a 1" throat and for a 2" column I'd go with a 1.25" or 1.5" throat...

Hope this helps...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Austin Nichols »

Thanks Rad,

I'm looking at options for a 3 inch LM rig and like the design you're using, not a lot of cutting and soldering and can be very modular.

I've got a spare 800mm of one and a half inch tube and a one inch three way tee that I could use for the reflux throat and return, I was hoping if I did this build I could use that without choking or flooding. If you think 2 inch would be a better option I will go that way tho, I've got about a foot of it here somewhere I think.

I'm also thinking that I could use a 3 inch to 2 inch reducer on the top to allow the use of my condenser from my 2 inch LM/VM bok, I will try that before I go and buy more materials to build a coil to fit three inch tube. I'm not sure it will knock down all the vapor but it's worth a try.

Cheers.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Austin Nichols »

I've built the reducer part of this design in 3" and 1.5" as well as a shonky keg adapter, I've got everything I need now to finish this build but would like some advise on column length.

Take off line is 3/8 with a SS 3/8 needle valve, and the reducer holds 100ml, I've got a 1.5" equal tee as the the reflux return that will ensure the 100ml held in the take off reducer and cant just drop straight back down the column.

The underside of the reducers has a 1/2" piece of 1.5" tube soldered in as a reflux centering ring for the column.

After looking at the parent site and using the calculator I keep coming up with different lengths for the column, I think my problem is that I cant figure out what my burner equals in watts or BTU's, it's a massive 4 ringed banjo burner that uses LPG.

The condenser head will be 14" long with a 10" double helix 1/4" coil, and the column can be anything up to 1.65 meters long but I'm getting 1.2m as optimal from the parent site. I just dont want to start cutting until I'm sure what I'm doing is ok.

If it all sounds good I'll finish it and do a cleaning run this weekend.

Cheers.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by kiwistiller »

I'd go 1.6m. If you've got the pipe already, packing won't be THAT much more, who cares if you're getting diminishing returns for the top 40cm? You're still getting returns, as long as you insulate well it won't cause any problems. Size it to fit under your ceiling :D

If you're after a tall 3" column, I'd expect you'll benefit greatly from some reflux centering rings lower down the column.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Austin Nichols »

packing won't be THAT much more
Yes I havnt told the mrs yet we need to mortgage the house for packing :lol:
I'd expect you'll benefit greatly from some reflux centering rings lower down the column
I would like to try and stay away from that idea, if I need to go that way I might as well build a plated column I spose, or just fit some centering rings in some slip joins which would be easy.

Cheers.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

If you have the height, go with the whole 1.65m lower column for now... You can always cut it shorter down the road, but can't cut it longer... :P Anything above ~1.2m would probably work just fine, but I haven't run those figures to be sure...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by kiwistiller »

Austin Nichols wrote:
I'd expect you'll benefit greatly from some reflux centering rings lower down the column
I would like to try and stay away from that idea, if I need to go that way I might as well build a plated column I spose, or just fit some centering rings in some slip joins which would be easy.
Cheers.
Well, no point building a nice tall column if the bottom half is going to be inefficent... Also I'd disagree on the "might as well build a plated column", to get an roughly equivilant still with plates you'd need well in excess of 20 plates... price up that one :D

Centering rings are dead easy, just file down a reducer to fit. fitting them in slip joints is indeed a very good option. Incidentally, the Amphora Society can hook you up with some slip fit seals to make the thing modular and easy to disassemble and so on.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Well, I've been reading this forum for quite some time now, and I finally joined. I started reading about distilling a couple of months ago and was really kinda surprised at how many variables are actually involved. I initially thought that it was fairly simple and straightforward. Boy was I mistaken. :esurprised:

Anyway, I had initially found some plans online for building a "world class distillation apparatus" that utilizes a stainless beer keg, and had thought that was what I was going to construct first. However, after reading many of the topics on here, I learned that there were better alternatives. After finding this thread I'm thinking that maybe this is the still that would be best for me to start out with. I have a fairly well equipped private shop and could definitely construct a larger still, but my home is a condo, and I'm thinking that this still would allow me to spend more time with it learning about this craft. Plus, I could use it on my current stove top, have an unlimited supply of constant pressure water, and a regular sink drain.

I have a few questions about building this still though. Maybe I missed it, but where did you get the stockpot and bowl? I'm thinking that since you already found a good combination that fits well together, that maybe I should just buy the exact same ones. Also, if using this on a stove top, what size and thickness plate should I get to place between the burner and the boiler?

thank you,

Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Greetings, Seaside...

Be sure to stop by the Welcome Center and give us a proper introduction...

The stock pot I use is actually part of a vegetable steamer set that has an insert plus a glass lid... We had it here, stashed away because we never used it for its intended purpose... I simply wandered about stores measuring mixing bowls until I found a perfect fit... If it wasn't for the fact that I already had the 8 quart stock pot I would have gone a bit bigger, say 12 - 16 quarts minimum and most likely 20 - 25 quarts...

As for a diffuser plate, I'd suggest trying a run or two prior to sourcing one as some newer electric stoves give a more even heat than older ones... I can actually get away without using a diffuser plate if I run a full boiler charge... A piece of 3/8" - 1/2" steel plate between the diameter of the electric element and the pot works well and I have even heard of people using a heavy duty cast iron skillet to handle the task...

Hope this helps... Good luck...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Azframer »

Every time I turn around I see something that would make a more affordable start to this hobby. I like every thing about this rig of yours Rad. Money is tight now so that is a plus I could just build top half and run only as a pot still for now and add the extension later but not to far out. It is cold as hell right now so I could run this inside with no problem. Wife just got a new 20 quart stock pot I will have to talk her out of, or just get a set for myself one. I may bump the condenser up to 2" though and see if I might need a liebig condenser later.
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

RAD,

Little by little I've been cobbling together all the pieces that I'm going to need to build your still. I came across this listing on Ebay as I was searching for a stainless bowl to fit on top of the 16qt stockpot that I bought. Thought you'd find it interesting.

Copper Alcohol Moonshine Ethanol Still E-85 Reflux NR 3
TWO STILLS IN ONE Combination POT and REFLUX 3 Gallon

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... MEWAX%3AIT

Looks like someone copied your idea and is now making money on it. Did they at least give you credit or offer you a commission?

Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Oh, and this one too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Copper-Alcohol-Moon ... 43a3818d3c

Credit to you? Uh...no. Looks like he's taking all the credit of designing that for himself. :roll:

He's also reselling plans for that still that I was first going to build - that are FREE to download on the internet and/or from this site! :esurprised: Nice, huh?

http://www.moonshine-still.com/

http://homedistiller.org/Stillmaker.pdf

Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Seaside, those aren't even close... They may use a stock pot and mixing bowl but they're all pot stills, not reflux stills...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

I know, but it sure looks as though he ran with your basic design and then sorta "cheaped' it out so he could make money on it.

Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Well, my wash is just about done, and I've gotten everything built except for the condenser coil, which is really kicking my ass. I don't know if I'm using the wrong copper tubing or what, but I just can't seem to wind a coil that doesn't flatten out and also get a kink or two. Blowing through it tells me that there is just too much restriction there to be functional. Is there a difference in 1/4" OD copper tubing? The stuff that I'm using is "Watts" brand copper tubing. The label says "General Purpose Copper Coil", and is made in China - like everything else nowadays. :roll:

Although it's not what I do for a living these days, I've been a Master Automobile Tech since I was 17. I'm sure that I've bent at least hundreds and hundreds of feet of different types of tubing before, for anything from brake lines to diesel injector lines, and I've NEVER had this much trouble. I've even done lines for expensive restorations and have always been told that my lines look "factory" bent. I could bent this in stainless or coated/galvanized brake line without even trying that hard. Why am I having so much trouble with this little 1/4" copper line?

Help...

thanks,

Seaside
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Seaside, there are several topics which cover winding condenser coils here in these forums... What size column tube are you trying to wind your coil for...??? I'm pretty sure I wound the coil for my 1.25" column using a 5/8" mandrel... I wound directly off the coiled copper I purchased without straightening it first, which would have work hardened it, and it wasn't filled... I only got very minor flattening... I have wound 1/4" using a 3/4" mandrel the same way an haven't encountered any flattening at all, as you can see earlier on in this topic... There may be two different types of 1/4" tubing and perhaps I've just managed to grab the right stuff every time I've gone into a hardware store...

It can be done... You just have to become one with the copper... If you fight it, you'll end up with kinks and/or flattening...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Seaside »

Seaside, there are several topics which cover winding condenser coils here in these forums...
I know. I think that I've read most (if not all) of them.
What size column tube are you trying to wind your coil for...???


I'm using 1 1/2" for the column, since you said that you'd probably scale it up a little if you had it to do over again.
I'm pretty sure I wound the coil for my 1.25" column using a 5/8" mandrel... I wound directly off the coiled copper I purchased without straightening it first, which would have work hardened it, and it wasn't filled... I only got very minor flattening... I have wound 1/4" using a 3/4" mandrel the same way an haven't encountered any flattening at all, as you can see earlier on in this topic...
Same here. I left it coiled too. I used a 3/4 inch mandrel and used the 12 ga. solid copper wire for the spacing like you did. (Good idea on the spacing wire too, BTW.) :wink: I even tried filling it with water and crimping the ends as was suggested in this or another thread and that did nothing to help. A complete waste of time. Didn't try freezing it though, or filling it with salt or sand. I really shouldn't have to do that with 1/4" tubing though...
There may be two different types of 1/4" tubing and perhaps I've just managed to grab the right stuff every time I've gone into a hardware store...
I sure hope so, or I'll just make it out of stainless...
It can be done... You just have to become one with the copper... If you fight it, you'll end up with kinks and/or flattening...
Oh yeah, I was "one" alright - one pissed off SOB. :D

To post some pics do I have to use an outside photo site like Flikr or Webshots?

thanks,

Seaside
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Last edited by Seaside on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

No, you don't need an external photo hosting site to post pictures... There is a section below the post editing Submit button where you can add attachments... Once uploaded you still need to insert them into the post... There is at least one tutorial somewhere in these forums... HERE is one of them...

Using water won't help at all unless it is frozen... I just work very slowly, using even pressure, never apply force from more than an inch or so away from the mandrel, and only apply as much pressure as my thumbs can muster...

I'm pretty sure I read here somewhere about a member actually getting copper too thin to wind without excessive flattening and kinking...

One thing to consider when winding... As the copper winds around the mandrel it generates heat, which is part of how it work hardens, and if you go too fast the heat will build up too much at the fulcrum point and the unwound copper ahead of the fulcrum will not be as flexible and will provide the leverage that causes the kinking either at the point where the warm copper meets to cold or where it is the warmest, wherever the molecules are the most active... Think of it as the kink occurring at the hot-spot, causing the hot-spot to get even hotter, which causes more kinking and on and on... I'm only surmising that flattening is merely a precursory alternative to kinking...
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