My New Small Scale Combo Still

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Sounds good, jaidormi...

Not sure what you meant about the packing... Are you looking at a longer column...??? I'm a firm believer in having the entire lower column packed, unless running in pot still mode...

As for the collection cup size, the rise of the vapor tube determines how much is retained before reflux... I like about one ounce because the continuous reflux helps keep the ABV and purity of the final product sensitive but not overly so... Having the needle valve close to the column definitely helps...

I have to agree with you on the cheap needle valves as they sure don't allow very precise adjustments... I've encountered the same pissing a stream problem when I only wanted another drop per second...

Like the parrots beak... Gotta make me one of those at some point...
jaidormi
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by jaidormi »

Rad,

I was basically just saying that the calculator on the parent site suggests that tall is good, to a point, and that I haven't reached that point yet. For instance, with a taller column I could run less reflux and collect at a higher rate while maintaining the same purity (in principle). Not that I will likely do that. 1.2m is fine for now.

I understand how the collection cup volume is controlled. What I'm saying is that I think it gets filled before the column is at EQ, and the fluid that it is filled with is NOT the foreshots, it's a less-differentiated fluid that I don't think will have a chance to re-evaporate and differentiate better. Has it been your experience that your first distillate is undifferentiated then come the foreshots? That is what I am expecting but I will let you know what happens.

If you're not suffering in the recession too badly, you might want to grab one of these needle valves. Hoke as a bunch of different valve tips and the linked to valve has the fine control tip, and is "only" $20. Course, I think you weren't running 3/8" so maybe you need a smaller one.

Thanks about the parrot. I took a cue from you and used what I had around. It's all made from pipe and tube. Having a bench vise has really opened the world up for me compared to before... :( I think it's awesome that you solder on your apartment balcony.

I'll let you know how I do later this week with a good valve and a boatload of 16.5% DWWG.
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

jaidormi wrote:I was basically just saying that the calculator on the parent site suggests that tall is good, to a point, and that I haven't reached that point yet. For instance, with a taller column I could run less reflux and collect at a higher rate while maintaining the same purity (in principle). Not that I will likely do that. 1.2m is fine for now.
Yes, you might be able to attain a greater take off rate with more height because lees reflux would help keep the column temperature higher... It's a juggling trick to find what is tall enough without being adversely too tall...
jaidormi wrote:I understand how the collection cup volume is controlled. What I'm saying is that I think it gets filled before the column is at EQ, and the fluid that it is filled with is NOT the foreshots, it's a less-differentiated fluid that I don't think will have a chance to re-evaporate and differentiate better. Has it been your experience that your first distillate is undifferentiated then come the foreshots? That is what I am expecting but I will let you know what happens.
Because my column is only 1.25" and I equalize for 15 minutes before collecting foreshots and heads the product in the cup gets diluted and recycled many times over before I pull anything off... If you pull them off slowly you should be able to tell when they have all been pulled... I take 1 - 2 drips per second until I'm past them... After that I equalize again for about 5 minutes and then re-check to make sure all is good before taking hearts...
jaidormi wrote:I think it's awesome that you solder on your apartment balcony.
I actually do most soldering indoors in a well ventilated area, taking more than adequate steps to keep the work area safe... No balcony here...

Hey, you gotta love DWWG for being almost goof-proof... Tastes good too...
HookLine
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by HookLine »

jaidormi

Good report.

Congrats on a successful first run.

Nice Parrot.

+1 for stainless valves. I don't understand why people go to all that trouble to build a nice column, and then stick a cheap shitty brass needle valve on it. Spend the money, get the right tool for the job in the first place. You will never regret it. [/soapbox]
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
punkin
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by punkin »

Both gate and needle valves set on the downstroke. What this means in practice is what you found, that they will work themselves open over time if you adjust them during opening.

Which means, open them a little more than what you want, and set them to what you want on a closing stroke, if ya get what i mean...


For what it's worth, and could help if you are using them to regulate flow of liquid or vapour.
HookLine
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by HookLine »

Good tip, P.
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djc
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by djc »

Where is the thermometer located on this column?

Thanks
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

djc wrote:Where is the thermometer located on this column?

Thanks
In pot still mode I don't use one... When using the reflux column the thermometer is mounted just below the still head in the top of the packing...
DestructoMutt
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by DestructoMutt »

jaidormi wrote:I was basically just saying that the calculator on the parent site suggests that tall is good
is that the calculator in the theory section? the one that is based on a 4 plate column?
lucky_jkl
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by lucky_jkl »

I was just curious is a temperature slot anywhere on the still? Also saw that piece looked like a dart wing of flat copper what is that for? I saw in the drawing you have the .75 in pipe open on the side where vapor is cooled... I realize some will get caught in the connection area and you just use the needle valve to take it off but some will fall down the .75 in pipe when it condenses no. I have seen another still on this site where they used a t fitting to make a trap for the condensing liquid do you do the same or is this trap not all that important to trap all the condensing vapors falling??
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

lucky_jkl wrote:I was just curious is a temperature slot anywhere on the still?
There is a thermometer port at the top of the coulmn, immediately below the lower reducer... It may not have been in place when the original pictures were taken... A piece of 1/4" copper serves as the thermometer port...
Also saw that piece looked like a dart wing of flat copper what is that for? I saw in the drawing you have the .75 in pipe open on the side where vapor is cooled... I realize some will get caught in the connection area and you just use the needle valve to take it off but some will fall down the .75 in pipe when it condenses no. I have seen another still on this site where they used a t fitting to make a trap for the condensing liquid do you do the same or is this trap not all that important to trap all the condensing vapors falling??
That flat piece of copper acts a a diversion plate and serves the same purpose of those other stills that use a T... The slanted plate is lighter, cheaper, requires less soldering, and is removable for cleaning... It has a tight friction fit... Another member made a scaled up version of this still and used a T... The top of the 3/4 extends up just far enough so the reservoir can hold 1 ounce of spirits before refluxing back down into the column packing... The slant plate rests just above the 3/4" opening...
trial&error
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by trial&error »

after looking at a few designs for an apartment still i threw your design into a CFD calculator.... the calculations are not 100% correct but i thougt ti was pretty cool.

scenes my 2.5" design is to big i might try your design. which i like BTW.

how does your head work for pot work for pot distillation?





FYI the images/CDF do not include condensation of the vapor, its the path of just vapor exiting the still but should give a close representation of the vapor flow

this assumes your design with a cut down 0.75" T to disturb the flow of the vapor
Attachments
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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

trial&error wrote:<<< SNIP >>>
how does your head work for pot work for pot distillation?
My unit works well in pot still mode with one exception... The needle valve doesn't allow 100% take off if you push too much heat... This also causes another side effect... Because of the unwanted reflux it is also possible to flood the condenser head if you push too hard... The same can be done in reflux mode due to the small scale size...

Personally, I don't mind that because I have gotten into the habit of running in reflux mode to pull foreshots, heads, and tails... I only run in pot still mode for the hearts and usually with a small amount of reflux... To attain full pot still mode I would have to remove the needle valve or replace it with a valve with greater throughput...

Now, all that said, if this design was scaled up a bit these shortcomings could be eliminated... Using 1.5" copper (minimum) for the column and condenser head, and a 1" throat at the bottom of the condenser head, would pretty much resolve the problem...

I haven't measured my output but I'm relatively sure I could get at least 2L per hour in pot still mode... My 8L boiler is barely big enough to try, however...
The Baker
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by The Baker »

jaidormi wrote:Here's my copy in 2" with a keg boiler.

snip
" 89" from head to the ground. Yowzer! It's my methanol recovery device for my biodiesel processor, honest!"

Hi. Just noticed this.

I am thinking of doing something similar, AND my son needs a methanol recovery system for his Biodiesel processor!

Does it work well for the Biodiesel?

Thanks!

(Edit) Okay, you were probably speaking tongue in cheek at the time, and it's maybe a bit off topic, but the processes ARE basically the same.
My son DOES need a methanol recovery system; and I will make something like this one day.
(Looks great, by the way!)
Would something like this be effective for methanol recovery? It seems to me that it should.
Thanks to all.
The Baker
blanikdog
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by blanikdog »

HookLine wrote:
You have to "be at one with the copper"...
Yep, you gotta have your chakra centred and all your internodes harmonically aligned with the cosmic crystal vibrations of the great universal life force, otherwise there will be kinking and tears!

Aum Shanti.

I've now seen it all, finally!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I coiled my 3/4" coil without packing by keeping it anealled (sp?) but did get a few minor kinks, but no tears as I figured that they kept the "internodes harmonically aligned with the cosmic crystal vibrations of the great universal life force". Nice to have confirmation. :roll:

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Kentucky shinner
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Kentucky shinner »

could you take a pic and show how the slant fits in your column.
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Kentucky shinner wrote:could you take a pic and show how the slant fits in your column.
It honestly just lays down into the head on a slant above the vapor port... Because the plate is longer than the column is in diameter it has no choice but to sit on an angle... Nothing high tech at all... I just bent the edges up to direct the liquid distillate and to allow more vapor space around the plate... A trimmed 3/4" T would work just as well...
slant-plate.jpg
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by Samohon »

So much info in one thread...
Just goes to show, 'size is'nt everything...'.

Thanks again man, Great Info...
♦♦ Samohon ♦♦

Beginners should visit The New Distillers Reading Lounge and the Safety and Related Issues among others...
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Just thought I would add a follow-up post here regarding this small still...

Some time ago I made a shorter column, about 7" tall, which provides me with a total of only 8" of packed column... I was apprehensive as to how well it would work but after many runs with it I can honestly say that it performs far better than I had originally expected...

Today I ran ~7 quarts of All Bran wash that fermented to ~14% ABV... I pulled off 4oz/120ml of foreshots and heads... After that I was able to pull 24oz/700ml of hearts at 172F/78C... I then pulled about 2oz/60ml of tails before the temperature started climbing through the roof... Excluding initial heat up of ~30 minutes and 15 minutes of equilibrium, the entire run took ~1.5 hours from first drip of collection to shut down... That's 16oz/.5L of ~95% ABV per hour from a 1.25" reflux column with only 8" of stainless steel scrubber structured packing... And virtually zero smell or flavored neutral spirit... Pretty good numbers for such a small rig... According the the Distillate to Water Calculator on the parent site there should have been ~1 quart/liter of 95% in the wash... I got roughly 30 of those 32 theoretical ounces... Note that these figures were based on vapor temperature only, without verification by a alcometer and parrots beak...

All that said, I do intend to go bigger... I need a way to run 20 - 25 liters of wash in under 4 hours, from take out and setup to cleanup and stored away... Using a 1500W internal electric element will require roughly one hour for heat up so setup and take down times will need to be minimized and the take off rate will probably need to be increased... It's in the works...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by ScottishBoy »

I need a way to run 20 - 25 liters of wash in under 4 hours, from take out and setup to cleanup and stored away...
Hmmmmm...thats either a very fussy wife...
...or a really consistent parole officer..;)

I should say thanks though. I drew a lot of inspiration from your rig. Im planning an air coil for the stripping module for mine.
ScottishBoy
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rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

ScottishBoy wrote:
I need a way to run 20 - 25 liters of wash in under 4 hours, from take out and setup to cleanup and stored away...
Hmmmmm...thats either a very fussy wife...
...or a really consistent parole officer..;)
I only have access to the kitchen while the female of the house is at work on weekday afternoons during the school season - getting her whopping 17 hours of work per week in... :| That means I have to take July and August off every year... :evil:
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by ScottishBoy »

rad14701 wrote:
ScottishBoy wrote:
I need a way to run 20 - 25 liters of wash in under 4 hours, from take out and setup to cleanup and stored away...
Hmmmmm...thats either a very fussy wife...
...or a really consistent parole officer..;)
I only have access to the kitchen while the female of the house is at work on weekday afternoons during the school season - getting her whopping 17 hours of work per week in... :| That means I have to take July and August off every year... :evil:
You need a Man Cave!
Or just cook dinner for her so its ready when she comes home. Eat, then say 'Dont worry Honey. I will do the dishes while Im watching my still. You just go put your feet up and let me take care of things."
My wife likes it when I give the kitchen up in better condition than when I started.

SB
ScottishBoy
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Read.Search.Listen.Ask for feedback, you WILL get it. Plastic is always "questionable". Dont hurry. Be Careful. Dont Sell,Tell, or Yell. If you wouldnt serve it to your friends, then it isnt worth keeping.
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

ScottishBoy wrote:You need a Man Cave!
Or just cook dinner for her so its ready when she comes home. Eat, then say 'Dont worry Honey. I will do the dishes while Im watching my still. You just go put your feet up and let me take care of things."
My wife likes it when I give the kitchen up in better condition than when I started.
Nope... She's a bit possessive as well as OCD... I have to get everything back in its exact place or she'll wig out... If I even turn the centerpiece on the kitchen table an inch - she'll know it... Move an item on an end table in the living room - she knows it... Try to make something in the kitchen - she has a fit... Best to just do things while she's not at home and then make it look like it never happened right down to the placement of every single item... I've even considered taking pictures so I can be sure things don't end up out of place...

Apartment life here doesn't give me the option of the man cave I used to have back when we had a garage, utility room, and a basement... :cry:
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by ScottishBoy »

rad14701 wrote:
ScottishBoy wrote:You need a Man Cave!
Or just cook dinner for her so its ready when she comes home. Eat, then say 'Dont worry Honey. I will do the dishes while Im watching my still. You just go put your feet up and let me take care of things."
My wife likes it when I give the kitchen up in better condition than when I started.
Nope... She's a bit possessive as well as OCD... I have to get everything back in its exact place or she'll wig out... If I even turn the centerpiece on the kitchen table an inch - she'll know it... Move an item on an end table in the living room - she knows it... Try to make something in the kitchen - she has a fit... Best to just do things while she's not at home and then make it look like it never happened right down to the placement of every single item... I've even considered taking pictures so I can be sure things don't end up out of place...

Apartment life here doesn't give me the option of the man cave I used to have back when we had a garage, utility room, and a basement... :cry:
Aw man. I'm just a few hours North. Come take over my garage! :)
ScottishBoy
HD Survival in a Nutshell...
Read.Search.Listen.Ask for feedback, you WILL get it. Plastic is always "questionable". Dont hurry. Be Careful. Dont Sell,Tell, or Yell. If you wouldnt serve it to your friends, then it isnt worth keeping.
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

Today I used my feints collection to test my new column extension... With my short and long extensions combined I have a total of ~22 inches of structured packing which gives a height:diameter of ~18:1...

As you can see in the first picture, the condenser is within inches of the ceiling... The second picture shows the thermometer reading towards the end of the heads removal...

I diluted ~40 ounces of feints, which contained very little tails, and collected ~12 oz heads, ~24 ounces of clean hearts, and ~2 oz of tails before the temperature hit 180F... I'm happy with the results... As I recall, my original column extension was somewhere between 16 - 18 inches before I butchered it into pieces...
still_w_tall_column_ext.jpg
still_temp.jpg
CooknBrew
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by CooknBrew »

"The stainless bowl measures approximately 9.5 inches and has a stainless steel sink drain attached... It might look like the rubber gasket is an issue but flour paste between the mating surfaces keeps any ethanol from causing leaching..."

Hi Rad,

That is a great looking unit you have constructed there. I would like to try something nearly identical.
Can you, or anyone else tell me more about the flour paste between the gasket? I dont understand - is the drain/gasket area detached between runs and re- applied with flour paste before each new run? Sorry if I am missing something simple here.
I appreciate any feedback,
Cooknbrew
"Good liquor, I stoutly maintain,
Gives genious a better discerning"
~Oliver Goldsmith: Irish Playwright
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

CooknBrew wrote:"The stainless bowl measures approximately 9.5 inches and has a stainless steel sink drain attached... It might look like the rubber gasket is an issue but flour paste between the mating surfaces keeps any ethanol from causing leaching..."

Hi Rad,

That is a great looking unit you have constructed there. I would like to try something nearly identical.
Can you, or anyone else tell me more about the flour paste between the gasket? I dont understand - is the drain/gasket area detached between runs and re- applied with flour paste before each new run? Sorry if I am missing something simple here.
I appreciate any feedback,
Cooknbrew
I almost never take the drain out of my SS bowl and have never had a problem... One of these days I intend to replace the rubber washer that is on the outside just to say it has no rubber even though the flour paste is still working fine after multiple runs and rinses... But, for now anyway, if it ain't broke, I ain't fixin it...
ozone39
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by ozone39 »

what insulates the rubber seal on that basket strainer form alcohol vapor????Is there something on the flange???
thinking inside the box is for squares....
rad14701
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by rad14701 »

ozone39 wrote:what insulates the rubber seal on that basket strainer form alcohol vapor????Is there something on the flange???
The rubber is on the outside of the still with jute twine coated with flour paste on the inside where any vapor contact is made... Cotton twine/string also works well...
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Re: My New Small Scale Combo Still

Post by CooknBrew »

ok, thank you. So I am thinking to get a sheet of cork and cut a gasket out of it for the drain area. Sound good?
"Good liquor, I stoutly maintain,
Gives genious a better discerning"
~Oliver Goldsmith: Irish Playwright
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