water pump

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water pump

Postby huxley » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:41 pm

I'm a little confused , and wanted to ask advise. I'm going to buy a 8 gallon boiler with condenser. what type or size of water pump do I need to buy?
I didnt want to buy something too small without enough power to cool down and not be able to turn steam into liquid.

what am I looking for , is it liters per hour, flow rate ?


thanks
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Re: water pump

Postby piperdave » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:02 pm

Depends on type and size of condenser, how much lift you need, size of reservoir, etc. Need more info to answer the question.
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Re: water pump

Postby Truckinbutch » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:29 pm

piperdave wrote:Depends on type and size of condenser, how much lift you need, size of reservoir, etc. Need more info to answer the question.

+1 . Not enough info to spec a pump .
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Re: water pump

Postby HDNB » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:38 pm

speaking of pump specifications... i ran across a deal on a 2" flexible impeller pump i just had to buy it being almost free. It came with a spec sheet...385L per MINUTE at 5psi 10 foot head. will pump to 30 psi at 70' head at 225LPM. :shock:

not sure what i'm gonna do with it now...not sure i can gear it down enough to avoid sucking the mash tun inside out, or blowing a hole thru the fermenter. :ebiggrin:
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Re: water pump

Postby still_stirrin » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:54 pm

HDNB wrote:....i ran across a deal on a 2" flexible impeller pump i just had to buy it being almost free....not sure what i'm gonna do with it now...not sure i can gear it down enough to avoid sucking the mash tun inside out...

:lol: I have lots of "bargains" like that laying around the house. My SoH thinks I'm a junk collector. I think, "I've got to find a use for it"...because it is too good to throw away. Just gotta' get it...because it's such a bargain.

Not unlike buying another pair of shoes simply because they were on sale....my SoH can without doubt understand that logic.
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Re: water pump

Postby pounsfos » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:05 pm

could always put are by pass valve in, so it diverts most that energy into a pipe going back into a water resovoir, and a nother valve for controlling frlow rate to the still, that way, the water will always have somewhere to go and won't put to much wear on the pump.

Just for the record, I use a 30w aquarium pump, at full power (all bypass valves closed) at the head height of my still it pumps about 3LPM, I only need about 1LPM soo life is good.

I brought it from the pet shop for about $30NZD, had it for about 3 years or so
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Re: water pump

Postby Truckinbutch » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:26 pm

Pumps can be tailored to fit your needs with creative plumbing .
I also want to mention that you can freeze milk jugs of water with enough sand in them that they will sink to the bottom of a coolant reservoir and keep the cold recirc water where you need it as opposed to floating ice in the top of a recirc barrel .
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Re: water pump

Postby cranky » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:52 pm

HDNB wrote:speaking of pump specifications... i ran across a deal on a 2" flexible impeller pump i just had to buy it being almost free. It came with a spec sheet...385L per MINUTE at 5psi 10 foot head. will pump to 30 psi at 70' head at 225LPM. :shock:

not sure what i'm gonna do with it now...not sure i can gear it down enough to avoid sucking the mash tun inside out, or blowing a hole thru the fermenter. :ebiggrin:

I got one like that, I think it was $10 at goodwill brand new in the box. 28ft head lift. Blew my fittings apart and emptied my reservoir all over the garage before I could even react :oops: . So definitely needs a relief valve.

Harbor freight used to sell a pretty good one with 10 or 11ft head lift that worked well for most anything but a few months ago they discontinued them :(
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Re: water pump

Postby Saltbush Bill » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:54 pm

Most people that I know use this type of submersible pump, There are many different brands , but they all do the same job.
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Re: water pump

Postby huxley » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:10 pm

$_12.JPG
$_12.JPG (13.01 KiB) Viewed 451 times


thats the type I bought. will be used on a 8 gallon pot
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Re: water pump

Postby HDNB » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:55 pm

this is the one i use when running the 50l with 2"pot into a 2" 4 tube shotgun. gotta help it get started, it can't push a 4' head without the help of the return line siphoning it back, so i just lay the still head on top of the reservoir, start it, and then put the still head on the kettle.
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Re: water pump

Postby cranky » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:16 pm

It looks like Harbor Freight has begun selling fountain pumps again. They have one similar to the one HDNB posted for $19 but I don't see the head lift listed. Maximum head lift is the most important thing with pumps. On something like what you posted 4 ft head lift should be plenty, I wouldn't use one with less but it might work. You might consider something with more head lift if you want to expand in the future but generally the more head lift the more they cost.
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Re: water pump

Postby huxley » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:20 am

thanks for all the advice. I just want to make sure I dont buy something not powerful enough or something too powerful.

the head lift would be , 8 gallon boiler (24") and tri clamp tube (24" ) the condenser ( maybe 4 " ) total 52" tall.
my ice bucket would be on the ground. so what minimum flow rate would I need ?
and one more question , the condenser says 1/2" hose barb connections. what size hose do I need to buy ?


Thanks for everyone's help, just asking experts because I dont want to end up buying the wrong thing.
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Re: water pump

Postby still_stirrin » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:26 am

huxley,

The water flow rate (pump gpm/lph, etc.) depends on the heat load you want to remove, not the geometry of your still. So, how much water you need to move depends on the kW of boiler heat you can use.

But....you need to lift the water to your RC and still have flow enough to transfer the heat load. So that's where the geometry comes into the formula.

Centrifugal pumps are typically rated with a flowrate (gpm/lph, etc.) but that is a maximum flow, ie - open outlet without any flow resistance. And similarly, they're usually rated with a lift potential. But that figure is "deadhead". In other words, it's the height to which you could (theroetically) raise the outlet of the hose to when pumping and the flow would stop flowing. Because of gravity, the water column in the hose imposes a back pressure on the pump's discharge, and that is (by definition) the maximum head lift the pump is capable of....when the flow reduces to zero!

So, you want a pump which will lift the water higher than you need it to be while still maintaining enough flowrate to transfer the heat load out of your RC.

Again, it's hard to answer how much water flow you'll need without the maximum heat load....and also the flow losses created in your water piping network.
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Re: water pump

Postby huxley » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:56 am

okay so my electrical element I'm thinking of buy will be 110V Heater Controller with 2000 Watt Element.

thanks again
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Re: water pump

Postby huxley » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:13 pm

bumb

any advise. thanks
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Re: water pump

Postby HDNB » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:12 pm

huxley wrote:bumb

any advise. thanks


i'd suggest the parent site for figuring out how much heat you need/want on the calculators and then go to the "everything electric" thread and figuring what buy and build from that. I can't think of a question that has not been answered in that thread.
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Re: water pump

Postby OtisT » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:39 pm

huxley wrote:I'm a little confused , and wanted to ask advise. I'm going to buy a 8 gallon boiler with condenser. what type or size of water pump do I need to buy?
I didnt want to buy something too small without enough power to cool down and not be able to turn steam into liquid.

what am I looking for , is it liters per hour, flow rate ?


thanks


Huxley, I just did some basic experimenting on my own to figure this out myself. As stated previously, the amount of fluid you need to pump is primarily dependent on how much heat you need to remove, not boiler size. Also to be factored is the input/output temperatures of the coolant water. I'm ignoring backpressure on this thread as it is most likely not a concern of yours. If you are recirculating, the maths get more complex and you need to consider when/if power/flow changes are involved in your run and what your max run time will be, because your input water temp is not likely to be consistent.

In my specific case I began with pressurized water just to identify the flow needed to operate my still in both stripping mode (Full power) and while fractioning. You may only need to know Max, but I am making a water recurcilating system that air cools hot output before returning to a reservoir, so I'm also looking at what the entire run looks like. I bought a very accurate water flow meter for this testing.

First, my equipment. VM fractions still. 1500W hotplate. 10g, fully insulated boiler. Insulated fractioning column. Liebig product and copper coil reflux condensed.

Finding minimum flow with a consistent input temp:
At each power phase of the run, tune your still's cooling. For me, tuning means find the minimum flow necessary to prevent vapor escaping And so that your output temp is almost uncomfortable to touch. This is my bare minimum flow rate for that power setting. For my 1500 watt still, no packing, stripping run on full power, that was .25 gallons per min (gpm)

My last Stripping run, 7.5 gallons at 13.5%ABV, took 3 hr, 20 minutes from first drops to finish, and requires 50 gallons of cooling water at .25 gpm. Full power

My last Spirit run, 6 gallons at 40% ABV, took 11 hours from first boil to finish, and required 132 gallons of cooling water at a rate of .2 gpm. My power setting was about 1250w for most of run.

FYI. Both of these flow tests were done during a cold stretch, and my input water was close to 10 deg F cooler than normal, so a summer run will require a bit more flow.

IMHO, A cooling failure is one of the biggest safety concerns during any run, and especially with a pump system. Be sure you have a plan for and practice what you will do WHEN it fails. You don't want to start thinking about how to deal with that as your shed fills with vapor. :-)
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Re: water pump

Postby huxley » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:34 pm

OtisT wrote:
huxley wrote:I'm a little confused , and wanted to ask advise. I'm going to buy a 8 gallon boiler with condenser. what type or size of water pump do I need to buy?
I didnt want to buy something too small without enough power to cool down and not be able to turn steam into liquid.

what am I looking for , is it liters per hour, flow rate ?


thanks


Huxley, I just did some basic experimenting on my own to figure this out myself. As stated previously, the amount of fluid you need to pump is primarily dependent on how much heat you need to remove, not boiler size. Also to be factored is the input/output temperatures of the coolant water. I'm ignoring backpressure on this thread as it is most likely not a concern of yours. If you are recirculating, the maths get more complex and you need to consider when/if power/flow changes are involved in your run and what your max run time will be, because your input water temp is not likely to be consistent.

In my specific case I began with pressurized water just to identify the flow needed to operate my still in both stripping mode (Full power) and while fractioning. You may only need to know Max, but I am making a water recurcilating system that air cools hot output before returning to a reservoir, so I'm also looking at what the entire run looks like. I bought a very accurate water flow meter for this testing.

First, my equipment. VM fractions still. 1500W hotplate. 10g, fully insulated boiler. Insulated fractioning column. Liebig product and copper coil reflux condensed.

Finding minimum flow with a consistent input temp:
At each power phase of the run, tune your still's cooling. For me, tuning means find the minimum flow necessary to prevent vapor escaping And so that your output temp is almost uncomfortable to touch. This is my bare minimum flow rate for that power setting. For my 1500 watt still, no packing, stripping run on full power, that was .25 gallons per min (gpm)

My last Stripping run, 7.5 gallons at 13.5%ABV, took 3 hr, 20 minutes from first drops to finish, and requires 50 gallons of cooling water at .25 gpm. Full power

My last Spirit run, 6 gallons at 40% ABV, took 11 hours from first boil to finish, and required 132 gallons of cooling water at a rate of .2 gpm. My power setting was about 1250w for most of run.

FYI. Both of these flow tests were done during a cold stretch, and my input water was close to 10 deg F cooler than normal, so a summer run will require a bit more flow.

IMHO, A cooling failure is one of the biggest safety concerns during any run, and especially with a pump system. Be sure you have a plan for and practice what you will do WHEN it fails. You don't want to start thinking about how to deal with that as your shed fills with vapor. :-)


thanks for the info. much appreciated.
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Re: water pump

Postby cranky » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:05 pm

My preference is to leave the outlet above the reservoir so I can see and hear the water running. Since I don't leave it unattended, if the water stops I have time to shut things down before the liebig overheats and it starts producing uncooled vapor. I will also say I think I remember once knocking a plug out but the system continued to circulate water from simple thermal convection but I wouldn't rely on it.
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Re: water pump

Postby BDF » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:59 pm

This cheap pump works for me: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B2DJGFO/

Have a 3 foot liebig condenser mounted vertically with the pump below it. Was more than enough flow to knock-down all the vapor my 5500w element could produce, where the inlet water temp to the condenser was straight from my water tap. Had to actually throttle it with a cheap brass in-line valve to get a smooth vapor transition.
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