Jimbo's Apple Thread

Post by **Halfbaked** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:23 am

I would be really upset if 9 1/2 fifths of apple brandy would have fallen out of the tree beside me also. I mean you would have wasted a 1/2 of a fifth and that would be devastated.

bonehead · Post by **bonehead** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:53 am

do any of you make cider the french or english way(can't remember which country right now) and settle out most of the cloudy thick part before fermenting. i do it both ways and the french,english way is a totally different product but wasteful. i built a apple grinder out of two inch oak a washingmachine motor a heavy piece of three inch stainless steel round stock and four sets of stainless serated teeth. the wood was thick enough to be able to press in sealed bearings so it is almost indestructable. the heavy weight of the spinning grinding wheel is the ticket to power. the more weight you have spinning the harder it is to stop and can be force fed from the hopper with a plunger. after me and my son built it i showed him how powerful it was with a piece of pine trim 1" by 3" and it ate it up and spit it out and said imagine what it could do to your hand. i was trying to scare him at the time because he was only in junior high school at the time. he graduated colledge last year, i know i am old. he had a sience fair in junior high where he made regular cider and hard cider and set up experiments using volunteres for his experiments, they were over 21 and not in school. it is amazing what different tastes people have. it was interesting and he got a lot of questions from the judges and i thought i was going to get crusified but it wasn't that bad. my son is on an atol 750 miles off of hawii and when he gets back sometime in the end of december or the begining of january i will have him take some detailed pictures of the grinder, antique grape crusher (for colored wine) and the real old wine press i found on long island NY. a long time ago. anyone make applejack in a chect freezer?

Mr Shine · Post by **Mr Shine** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:18 am

Jimbo wrote:A quiz..... how many apples do you think fit in this 55 gallon barrel heaped over the top?

261 lbs

Haha. I was close.

My guess:

Thanks for this thread, Jimbo!

Post by **Jimbo** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:11 am

Shine, damn, Helluva guess.

Bonehead. I know the french crush, then leave the pomace piled up in a cart to oxidize with a cheesecloth draped over the top for a while before pressing. They think the oxidation adds an important flavor. In my experience, by the time I crush and press, the juice (which is clear inside the apple) is slightly brown and oxidized from the oxygen its exposed to during the process. Is this enough to add whatever frenchie flavor profiles they want? Beats me. But I dont mess around long after grinding before I pitch yeast. Its a race at that point with the wild shit and I really dont need 55 gallons of vinegar. As much as I like a good cider vinegar on my greens. So I crush, press and ferment right away. I do however leave it to ferment for 1 month, for a few reasons. It goes really dry, the flavors mature up some and improve I believe with a little age, and it clarifies nice, so there's very little solids that settle into the bottom of the boiler to potentially burn.

bonehead · Post by **bonehead** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:51 pm

the best way i know of to get vinigar is to ferment apples in the same place you ferment beer. there is a little flying insect called a vinigar fly that can do you in also. the french let the juice settle in refriderated tanks and use the top layer of clearer juice to make the real good (expensive) cider. i mostly use it all because i keep all the bigger pieces out with the press bag that i put the apple pumice in before pressing.

Post by **Richard7** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:05 pm

Mr Shine wrote:
Jimbo wrote:A quiz..... how many apples do you think fit in this 55 gallon barrel heaped over the top?

261 lbs
Haha. I was close.

My guess:
260
Thanks for this thread, Jimbo!

I must be confused. I still don't know how many apples that is

Post by **Usge** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:43 pm

Nice work guys!!

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:26 am

What does 1550 lbs of apples look like?

Beat last years haul with the help of Midwest Mike and his fiance. We chewed through about half of them or better and made 44 gallons of cider before running out of steam. Ibuprofren is my friend today.

kurgan · Post by **kurgan** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:37 pm

Jimbo those are some good looking apples! Sorry to hijack, but there's a bunch of places around here selling theirs as "Deer apples" for bait. I'm guessing they are culls. Ya'll ever use something like these? I'll have to check prices to see if they're even worth it.

Post by **Richard7** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:44 pm

If the price is right go for it. If they call them deer apples or even opossum apples, they are apples, a good source of natural sugar.
We all know what sugar is good for!

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:21 pm

Hey Kurgan, Yes probably culls. The apples I use are unsprayed. Theyre not the prettiest. But thats fine with me, I guess I can call my brandy Organic. A few worm holes and spots doenst hurt anything. The only thing to look out for is soft rotten spots. Towards the end of the season especially the apples have a hard time holding up. Especially the ones that ripen earlier, Golden Delicious etc. Either cut off teh rotten spots or pitch those apples, What you dont want is the beginnings of vinegar to toast your whole batch.

kurgan · Post by **kurgan** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:25 am

Thanks Jimbo. I'll try to update with what I find in case anybody else wants to know.

kurgan · Post by **kurgan** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:51 am

I never was able to get those apples. Better luck next year I hope.

Post by **corene1** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:43 pm

Hey Jimbo! I have been building a new feed auger for Tree Top Apple juice and couldn't help but think of your thread here. This is maybe a bit to big for the hobbyist
, 72 inches by 14 inch diameter, but it would sure feed a lot of apples into the grinder.

Post by **Jimbo** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:24 pm

You're doing fabrication for a commercial juice outfit? Very cool!!

And sounds like a hell of a connection to butter up for some pressings

maybe need to test that auger out for 55 gallons before releasing it to production. Gotta be quality minded and all, looking out for the best interest of Tree Top of course

Post by **Halfbaked** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:33 pm

I wonder if you put that 14 in auger in a 14 1/2 ss tube with small holes in bottom end of it and turned it with an electric motor you could feed apples on top end and juice come out the other by pushing them down and compressing rather than having to grind and then press. (Obviously the auger would be strait up and down and holes on bottom and a big funnel at the top). Kinda like a screw press only being an auger.

Post by **corene1** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:52 pm

Jimbo wrote:You're doing fabrication for a commercial juice outfit? Very cool!! And sounds like a hell of a connection to butter up for some pressings maybe need to test that auger out for 55 gallons before releasing it to production. Gotta be quality minded and all, looking out for the best interest of Tree Top of course

It is really a strange job. Tree Top is in Oregon and we are in Central California. They somehow heard of us from a friend we do work for up in Tehachapi on the big wind mill farms and asked if we could make the auger . No Problem, sure seems like they could find a shop closer to home, so I probably won't be getting any juice, but it still reminded me of your post.
To Halfbaked, The auger attaches to the grinder on the end of the shaft and works as a single unit. I would love to see it in action. There is a guy in town here that has a small grinding and pressing facility and I am trying to get some juice from him but he is too expensive. He is making way more money selling it as Organic juice. $7.00 per 1/2 gallon.

Post by **LWTCS** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:06 pm

corene1 wrote: $7.00 per 1/2 gallon.

Cane Lady by me wants $6 for a 12ounce bottle,,,,and she has folks standing in line.

5 gallons is a utility bill.

Post by **corene1** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:57 pm

LWTCS wrote:
corene1 wrote: $7.00 per 1/2 gallon.
Cane Lady by me wants $6 for a 12ounce bottle,,,,and she has folks standing in line.

5 gallons is a utility bill.

WOW!!!! I guess living in the heart of Agriculture has it's advantages. That's over $30 per 1/2 gallon!

Post by **ChairLawyer** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:01 pm

Corene
Tehachapi ... ?!? Near Bakersfield?

Post by **Jimbo** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:38 pm

Good Lord, fresh pressed cider around here goes for 7 or 8 a gallon. And I thought that was nuts. Looking at it another way tho, that's about 17, 18 lbs of apples. At the best prices anywhere in season it's still $9 worth of apples.

Post by **corene1** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:35 am

ChairLawyer wrote:Corene
Tehachapi ... ?!? Near Bakersfield?

Yep, we are just down the hill.

Post by **Jimbo** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:03 am

Well I just finished the 2013 apple runs. This year I split the cider into 3 batches and used 3 different yeasts. From these I did 3 seperate slow single runs, and a 4th all feints run. Kept them all seperate throughout and aging them seperately as well on oak. I also bottled some cider from each batch to compare, and did a corny keg of blended cider for drinkin, Here's my observations on the yeasts. The apples were a blend of 5 varieties this year, some tart, some sweet.

Lalvin EC-1118 - Cleanest by far, and highest yielding. For drinking cider my least favorite, too plain, doesnt add any nice fruity esters so its just dry tart cider. After distilling however it revealed the apple the most, and gave the highest yield (less cuts).

Lalvin 71B-1122 - Nice yeast, first time trying this one. Unique slightly fruity esters, went nice and dry 0.995. This yeast is able to metabolize malic acid, so it softens the cider. The combination of lower tartness and fruity esters make the cider very drinkable now without aging. The brandy is interesting, unique character, doesnt cover the apples but lays something on top thats interesting

Cotes des Blancs - Fruitiest and least attenuative (didnt go totally dry, 0.999). The cider is really nice, fruity and slightly sweet. Highest esters of the 3 yeasts, made the brandy tricky. The early part of the run was very headsy, aldehydey. It was tough making cuts with this one. I ended up having the lowest yield, but still the highest estery fruityness in the brandy. I have a sneaky suspicion that this one might turn out the best tho after a year on oak. Its big now, so time and oak I think are really gonna bring this one around nice.

All Feints Run - The keep cut from the runs above was about 50% by volume, more for 1118, less for cpotes des blancs, so I ended up with lots of feints. I ran these together (without the fores) and it cleaned up really nice. The keep cut was really wide, fruity, appley and clean. At the end of the day I might blend all 4 runs together and barrel it. But for now they are aging seperately with a 1x1x5" charred oak stick in each quart jar.

Cheers.

Post by **Halfbaked** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:03 am

Jimbo 1 statement and one question.

Statement - I think your last post is worthy of a completely more informative thread in its self. Not everyone (me especially) around here is a yeast expert. I would like to know temps also. I know I can get this from mfgs but they are selling it and you are using it and not trying to get me use it. I have seen informative yeast posts but none that were done like this. Good comparisons would like more on how dry they went and how much less the Cotes des Blancs than the ec-1118 and down to how much less finished goods you got. Honestly, I could care less about the yield and 100000% about the finished product. I bet the feints run is as good or better than original product.

Question - if you used the Cotes des Blancs and when it was finished drop some ec-1118 to get the last drop what is your take on that? Would that help squeeze the last drop out and would it have any bad effects?

Post by **Jimbo** » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:53 am

Sure you could drop in another yeast to take it dryer after the first yeast throws in the towel. As long as the first doesnt have the K1 factor. This is common in high gravity beer makin. Original yeast for flavor, another high gravity tolerant yeast to crank the alc. etc.

With cider and some wines there's also a malolactic fermentation that is a type of secondary fermentation done via late innoculation with certain lactic acid bacterias and other lacto and pedio strains. Dont think it adds to the ethanol much but its the same principle youre talking about and turns the tart malic acid into a softer lactic acid. In Chardonnay wines its commonly done to produce a buttery character from the diacetyls it produces.

Post by **frunobulax** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:36 am

A guy at our home brew club meeting last night told me he was making a hard cider for a friend of his to run. He got the cider from a local orchard, $25.00 for 5 gallons, which sounds reasonable to me.
I'm gonna pick up 10 gallons to make a brandy. Do you think I should do a single run or a 1.5 run? Do I need pectic enzymes or anything for this? I never made a brandy before, what do ya think I'll get from 10 gallons, 3 quarts?
Thanks.....

Post by **Bushman** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:00 am

frunobulax wrote:A guy at our home brew club meeting last night told me he was making a hard cider for a friend of his to run. He got the cider from a local orchard, $25.00 for 5 gallons, which sounds reasonable to me.
I'm gonna pick up 10 gallons to make a brandy. Do you think I should do a single run or a 1.5 run? Do I need pectic enzymes or anything for this? I never made a brandy before, what do ya think I'll get from 10 gallons, 3 quarts?
Thanks.....

I go from apples to cider to fermentation to distilling. Not sure what you mean by a 1/2 a run? Once through will give you your brandy flavor as far as what you should get that sounds about right as your yield will probably be 8% or a bit less without sugar (my recommendation). Remember to be liberal with your heads cut as fruit tends to yield a bit higher percentage.

Post by **frunobulax** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:12 am

Thanks, I meant a One and a half run.., strip 5 gallons and add it too the other 5 gallons of wash and do the spirit run..

Post by **Bushman** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:29 am

frunobulax wrote:Thanks, I meant a One and a half run.., strip 5 gallons and add it too the other 5 gallons of wash and do the spirit run..

Thanks for clarifying it for me, I should have figured it out!

Post by **Jimbo** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:18 am

fruno, you need to taste the first run to know whether youll want to do 1 1/2 or maybe even a full double run. Most years Ive done a single run with apple brandy and been happy, some years tho I just wasnt completely satisfied and did 1 1/2 or 2 (been making apple brandy for 20 years). Also, I finish the year with an all feints run, which is a double or 2 1/2 depending what came before, and that usually gives something pretty nice to add to the main barrel.

This is another very subjective thing, but for me I 'usually' like a single run for apple brandy, eau de vie's and rum, and a double run for all grain whiskies.

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