SPP Packing

Fittings, parrots, packing, tooling and so on.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

yeahhhh Hound Dog, I agree, if it is a matter of sulfites, my column is copper, my leibig condenser is copper too... I'm dealing for neutral and I'm refluxing just Allbran so I will get rid of copper catalyst for a while... I used some copper scrubbers but they rust very quickly while SS are always shiny... cheers
joeymac
Swill Maker
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:22 pm

Re: SPP Packing

Post by joeymac »

In planning ahead for myself...

Those of you running SS SSP, when you pack the column how are you keeping it IN the column? Are you just putting a few inches of SS or copper scrubber in the bottom of the column and pouring the SSP on top of that? Or does the increased weight of the SSP need some sort of internal bottom support... like plates, screens or something affixed to the column. I would think a column full of SSP and distillate weight would easily push a scrubber right out of the bottom of the column.

I just skimmed the entire thread, but didn't see any mention of my concern.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
Hound Dog
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3002
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:45 pm
Location: Hounds Hollow, VA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

If you use a screen of sorts, be aware that it can act as a plate and hold liquids, filling the column. I found that out using a stainless shower strainer. I have a cage that I built to hold lavarocks, it rests on the edge of the ferrule in the column. I used that with a scrubbie on top.
LM Still Operating Instructions
Cranky's New Distiller's Advice
Using Google Search

Drinking Rum before noon makes you a Pirate not an alcoholic.
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by rad14701 »

Hound Dog wrote:If you use a screen of sorts, be aware that it can act as a plate and hold liquids, filling the column. I found that out using a stainless shower strainer. I have a cage that I built to hold lavarocks, it rests on the edge of the ferrule in the column. I used that with a scrubbie on top.
I use a tuft of SS scrubber at the top and bottom of the column to keep the SPP in place... Weight could be an issue with a larger column... My packed column section is 28" x 1.25" so there isn't all that much SPP weight...
User avatar
DAD300
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2839
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Southern U.S.

Re: SPP Packing

Post by DAD300 »

I've used two methods...

A SS filter disk from Stilldragon for $4usd or so.
Filter Disk (2).jpg
A Copper scrubbie held in place with a bent wire screen.
bottom r.jpg
A liter of the small stuff weighs 3.7 pounds...

It isn't hard to wind, it is hard to cut the bits...
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: SPP Packing

Post by der wo »

I bought SPP in Poland (I live in Europe). The seller gave me "for free" two pads/scrubbies made from SS-wire which perfectly fit in my 2"-column.
DSC06705.JPG
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Hi guys,
I would like to share my experience with SPP. Sharing is a way to learn and improve. I'm very happy with my results, but sometimes I suspect that they are too good and maybe I'm a bit wrong. My main concern is about cuts.
Usually I,m stripping 4x23L Allbran washes and I get about 30L at 33%ABV. I run these 30L at 33% with my boka filled with SPP.
At full power 5500W the mixture is boiling in less than 30 minutes. Then I decrease the power at about 2000W and let it equalize the mixture for about 20 or 25 minutes.
Usually I stay at 2000W to collect the foreshots. I collect 400ml of foreshots at 4 drips per second that I throw away. The next 1L or sometimes 1200ml are HEADS collected at 20ml/min.
When I can't smell any trace of "acetone" I gradually increase the power up to 2700W (more power will create flooding) and the take off up to 40ml/min. I could go faster but I prefer to stay here because I think my column is better equalized at this rate. Finally when I see my thermometer increase a tenth I reduce the take off up to a halway point and I change to Tails jars.
These are my results:
30L at 33%ABV of allbran low wines:
400ml Foreshots, 4%
1000ml Heads, 10.1%
8000ml Hearts
81%
The rest are the tails. I calculate the initial amount of alcohol by 100%, so from 30L at 33%ABV is 9885ml of alcohol. So in this case Tails are about 485ml, 4.9%
Maybe would be better to calculate by 95%. If you know the correct method to calculate the total amount of alcohol please let me know.
I'm very surprised because that is a huge amount of hearts. And besides that, the tails cut is ridiculous. I'm not sure but maybe I'm collecting too much "good stuff".
I read in another post about refluxing at low power during the equilibrium period and collecting the Heads slowly will compress significantly the Heads cut. But I don't know if this advice is applicable to SPP.
Maybe you, much more experienced guys could help me to clarify these doubts. I will appreciate very much some comments about your experience, cuts, rates, etc, Or just some new ideas...
Thanks in advance
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: SPP Packing

Post by skow69 »

It's really hard to make a meaningful comparison between different guys/gals with different goals and different tastes running different stills. So there really isn't anything like a universally accepted industry, or community, standard. But I also know that sometimes it can help to see how other people do stuff, so I guess I'll whip mine out.

I typically make the spirit run with about a 27% ABV charge on a LM/VM combo, and take about 5% fores, 15-20% heads, 60% hearts, and 20% tails. I think I am more particular than most about getting a clean neutral product. In fact, I save up the hearts from several spirit runs and run them again at 40% ABV. I started doing the third run to get rid of the last of the tails, but it's made me kind of lazy about spirit run cuts. Sometimes I'll keep more than I should of the latest heads and earliest tails cuz I know I know I can isolate them in the final run. So now on the final run I prolly take 2-3% as heads, 90-95% hearts, and the rest left in the boiler smelling like tails.

I don't know if that will help you clarify things or not. Might just cloud 'em up worse. But you asked. And I warned you. lol.

EDIT: Cheers.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: SPP Packing

Post by der wo »

54mm column, LM, 70cm SPP, 25cm copper scrubbers, the whole time 2.6kW.
Birdwatchers, spirit run from 35% low wines with soda in it:
-I concentrate for 30min
-Then foreshots at 1-2 drips per second. I switch earlier to the heads than you, so the foreshots are only 2% of the total alcohol.
-The heads are 10%, 4 drips per second.
-If I use carbon filtering (if I want to mazerate with the alcohol), my tails are only 3%. But if I don't (for vodka or if I want to keep it high proof), the tails cut would be much earlier of course. But normally I do a mixture, I first collect vodka and then alcohol for carbon filtering.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Interesting... Both of you do it in a very different way.
i didn't mention my neutral is to make vapour infused gin so eventually is distilled again and my gin cuts are quite demanding. There are again heads, and tails beyond 65-55%ABV.
What do you think about refluxing at low power during the equilibrium period and collecting the Heads slowly will compress significantly the Heads cut. It is applicable to SPP?
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: SPP Packing

Post by der wo »

There will be tails again because of the herbs. And perhaps because of the not 100% clean packing.

If there is a heads cut again depends on the spirit you make. Odin says, with Gin you have always a heads cut. I never did Gin, so that's all I know. But I can say, I never did a heads cut for mazerated fruits, but perhaps it is a mistake.

Why low power? Why not the maximum possible for your column all the time? If you take 2.5kW and collect 2 drips per second, you have a better reflux ratio, than if you use 1.5kW and collect 2 drips per second.
Same for the equilibrium period: The more power the more reflux cycles per time.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Hi der wo,
Odin as usual is right. Gin Heads are a must at least for 2 reasons. First one is that the initial evaporated essential oils of juniper are monoterpenes and they are too strong. You can notice that using your nose. Second reason is to prevent contaminating your gin from previous runs. Gin tails are really strong flavoured and they are stick to the copper. As you say then herbs involves a tails cut.
About using low power for equalize and Heads you are right, That's what I thought, and that's why I'm equalizing and collecting heads at 2000W, but some days ago I read here: (sorry is a bit long)

snuffy wrote:
The thermal efficiency of the column is most important during the equalization of the column. This is the initial heating of the boiler and column without removing any product. During equalization, the low-boiling components of the mixture -- heads -- will migrate to the top of the column. Typically, this equalization takes about an hour, though many people will let the column equalize for much longer periods.

Once the wash starts to boil, the vapor will start moving up the column. At around 1100W the vapor will move up the column at a couple of inches per second. Some of the heat from the vapor will be absorbed by the column and packing. Once the vapor has filled the entire column, there will still be a small amount of air entrained in the packing. Once all the air has been displaced and the column contains nothing but vapor, the heat transfer efficiency rises dramatically.

This can be seen in a glass column by varying the power going to the boiler. Once the air is purged from the column, an increase in boiler heat is almost instantly reflected by an increase in the reflux at the condenser. This is because pure vapor will transmit the heat energy through the column in a domino-like effect of cascading boiling and condensing throughout the entire length of the column. What this means in practical terms is that the equalization process will require very little energy once all the air is gone and there is nothing but vapor in the column.

A well insulated 2" column that is delivering distillate through the takeoff will usually require between 750W and 1200W at the boiler. The equalization process can operate a much lower power levels. I have had good equalization at as little as 150W. Observations of the reflux condenser in a glass column have shown that reflux begins to form at as little as 75W power to the boiler. This, in turn, suggests that the heat losses from the insulated boiler and column were less than 75W. Losses from uninsulated boilers and columns can measure in the hundreds of watts.

The fact that equalization can take place at very low power densities has some implications. If higher power is used during equalization, there will be more mass transfer in the column as larger quantities of vapor and reflux move up and down. This can impede the equalization process because the amount of heads is very small and mixing will increase the dilution of heads contaminants throughout a larger volume of alcohol. Heads occupy such a large volume of product because it can be smelled and tasted in tiny dilutions; in pure form, heads contaminants would measure only a few milliliters.

5. Heads compression and sharp cuts

What this means for distillers is that anything that can prevent the dilution of heads components will increase the yield by holding the losses due to heads to a minimum. The general term for these techniques is "heads compression"; the volume of heads is compressed as small as possible. Any agitation or mixing inside the column will tend to dilute and spread out the heads, so reducing the mass transport inside the column while allowing the temperature gradient to move the heads contaminants into a small region will give the greatest amount of compression. This can be aided by specific design, to be discussed later, of the upper column to increase this "trapping" of heads contaminants in the smallest possible volume of alcohol. The way to do this is to use as little heat as possible during equalization and running off the heads volume. This will give the smallest amount of heads and the sharpest "cut" between heads and hearts. This principle of low-energy heads separation also carries over to pot stills as well: the slow and gentle distilliation of heads will give the least volume of alcohol with off-flavor contaminants and the sharpest cuts.

Once the heads have been stripped from the column, the power level can be increased to run off the hearts at a faster rate. As the tails approach, a reduction in power and slowing the takeoff rate can compress the tails contaminants in the same way. A thermometer in the upper 2/3 of the column will be of considerable help in monitoring this process, since it will show a wider change in temperature and show it earlier than the thermometer in the takeoff arm of the head. On my current column, 80 deg C appears to be the upper limit for keeping the column stable during heads. If the temperature rises above this, the column is running too fast and both purity and %abv suffer. Below this temperature, the purity is good, but the rate of production is lower. Each still will have a threshold temperature in the upper portion of the column that will indicate the min/max point where purity and speed are maximized. This simple addition has not been widely adopted yet, but as more people gain experience with it, the benefits will become more widely accepted.
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: SPP Packing

Post by der wo »

Yes I know. It's a theory. Mine is also a theory (but a much simpler one). Yes, more power means not only more reflux cycles, but also more chaos and mixing in the column, more entrainment. Which factor is more important? There are different opinions about that here. For example Odin tries always to use as much power as possible with LM and SPP I think. Try it out. I don't think, this detail decides, if your spirit is good or bad.

And as always it's even more complicated: The effectiviness of packing is different depending on power.
...So probably the only path to wisdom is to try out.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: SPP Packing

Post by skow69 »

I don't make a heads cut for Gin, or for absinthe or Chartreuse, cuz I start headless. Absinthe and Chartreuse I collect the tails for use in another process. Gin I just let em go.

I tried carbon filtering for a while. It was more trouble and mess than I want to deal with. I'm sure there Are better methods than I used.

I remember that theory about equilibrating at low power. It didn't work for me, just took longer to stack the column.

Collection speed helps determine reflux ratio, and reflux ratio helps determine HETP. So basically if you collect slower you get more distillation going on in any reflux column. The other major factors are column size and height, power input, reflux condensation, and packing. You don't have to have them all perfect, but you do have to get enough of them close enough to achieve your particular goal. (95% ABV is just harder to make than 85%. And clean is harder to make than dirty

I like SPP. I actually mixed in a bunch of smaller stainless pieces to fill it in cuz I thought it had too much open space, void I think they call it. That's part of the fun, run it any way you want, experiment with anything (safe). By the time you've tried everything you'll know what works best for you. (If you kept good notes, that is.)

Simulposted with the last two. Man, you guys type a lot faster than me.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Hi skow,
Try to make a heads cut with gin, at least the first 10ml and you will get a better smooth and silky product....
About Low Power or high reflux ratio I will stay with the second one as usual because I like the results but I will try at least once low power to see if there are some differences.
Thanks a lot for your comments.
martiangreen
Novice
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:32 pm

Re: SPP Packing

Post by martiangreen »

Howdy All,

I hate to ask a dumb question here, but I've read through this thread and did the HD google search and can't find the answer, so I'm hoping y'all can help me.

Where can I buy some SPP online?

Thanks!
Hound Dog
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3002
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:45 pm
Location: Hounds Hollow, VA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

martiangreen wrote:Howdy All,

I hate to ask a dumb question here, but I've read through this thread and did the HD google search and can't find the answer, so I'm hoping y'all can help me.

Where can I buy some SPP online?

Thanks!
Try the first result on Google when you type in Spiral Prismatic Packing. ... http://stainlessstuff.net/parts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

He is a well respected distiller on a couple of forums. I don't think you will find any in the US.
LM Still Operating Instructions
Cranky's New Distiller's Advice
Using Google Search

Drinking Rum before noon makes you a Pirate not an alcoholic.
WIski
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:39 pm

Re: SPP Packing

Post by WIski »

What ever happened to Big Swede? He was selling it on Flea bag.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=49704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Hound Dog
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3002
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:45 pm
Location: Hounds Hollow, VA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

WIski wrote:What ever happened to Big Swede? He was selling it on Flea bag.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=49704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
He hasn't been on in a while. Last I heard from him he was working on an airplane project. Perhaps he got bored and moved on.
LM Still Operating Instructions
Cranky's New Distiller's Advice
Using Google Search

Drinking Rum before noon makes you a Pirate not an alcoholic.
User avatar
bluefish_dist
Distiller
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:13 am
Location: Eastern Ia

Re: SPP Packing

Post by bluefish_dist »

I have a couple of liters from big swede I would sell. I can say that I didn't see it work any better than other packing, but it might for you.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
User avatar
papapro
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:56 am
Location: Ontario

Re: SPP Packing

Post by papapro »

martiangreen wrote:Howdy All,

I hate to ask a dumb question here, but I've read through this thread and did the HD google search and can't find the answer, so I'm hoping y'all can help me.

Where can I buy some SPP online?

Thanks!
Here whe I got my http://pracowniametaloplastyczna.pl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow the guy sells it on http://www.allegro.pl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow the staff he makes is amazing when I run slow I can get 96% at 21 degc
on 2 inch tower I bought 1 litre and I dont use all. By buying through allegro he sends within couple of days is like ebay.
If you need help with translation PM me.
Yes I am a Novice with 40+ years of doing this hobby
distilling is like sex the slower the better and everyone is happy
fermenting is opposit to sex the faster the better
Hound Dog
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3002
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:45 pm
Location: Hounds Hollow, VA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by Hound Dog »

bluefish_dist wrote:I have a couple of liters from big swede I would sell. I can say that I didn't see it work any better than other packing, but it might for you.
It didn't work well for me either.....
LM Still Operating Instructions
Cranky's New Distiller's Advice
Using Google Search

Drinking Rum before noon makes you a Pirate not an alcoholic.
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Hi guys!
Some of you are running SPP in a 3" Column?
I'm planning to build a SS 3" Boka
What is your take-off rate for neutral spirit?
User avatar
frunobulax
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:23 pm
Location: Sunny N.J.

Re: SPP Packing

Post by frunobulax »

I'm just running lava rock in a 3" Boka and my take off rate is about 3 quarts per hour at 96%
That's using a charge of 40% from stripping runs.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: SPP Packing

Post by Odin »

Around 5.5 liters per hour of pure azeo with oversized SPP in a 3 inch diameter (slightly less actually - 70 mm) column.

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Hi Odin!
Are you selling the oversized SPP?
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: SPP Packing

Post by Odin »

Helicon Column Packing (HCP) I call it, because that name does its shape more justice. Hmmm ... I stopped selling our SPP and the likes directly because of the huge hassle vs. the earnings (nil). Especially after some Swedes were convincing me they didn't get their orders in and I had to reship sometimes like three times anew ... only to find out they were merrily trading all of my "it never arrived" SPP on their local sites amongst themselves at prices higher than I ever charged them for!

:D

Serge, you in the neighborhood? If so, come by, you get it at making costs. If you have a 3 inch diameter column, no less. No more than 5 inch, by the way, but that's beyond (far beyond) homedistilling

Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
sergiolis
Swill Maker
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:05 am
Location: spain

Re: SPP Packing

Post by sergiolis »

Hi Odin I'd love to go to the Netherlands!!! but you know Im absorbed by the city.
At the moment It is just a plan to build a 3". I'm looking for 3" sanitary SS spool tubing from China or US, because here nobody provides it.
I'm really excited to make it so if I find all the components I will build it. Anyway I think my polish SPP could do the job.
:D Congratulations for your great Company and thanks a lot for your contributions. :thumbup:
User avatar
rgreen2002
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:57 pm
Location: Northeastern USA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by rgreen2002 »

sergiolis...

I found these guys a long time ago when i was looking into SPP. Never bought anything but kept the site just in case:

http://stainlessstuff.net/parts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
HD Glossary - Open this
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers - start here
BEST WAY TO GET ANSWERS FROM HOME DISTILLER
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: SPP Packing

Post by rad14701 »

rgreen2002 wrote:sergiolis...

I found these guys a long time ago when i was looking into SPP. Never bought anything but kept the site just in case:

http://stainlessstuff.net/parts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
That site belongs to one of our HD members... :ewink:
Post Reply