Hopefully not a dumb question

Ozark Shiner · Post by **Ozark Shiner** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:19 pm

I've been reading everything I can on here for over a month and am getting ready to build my still. Two questions that I have not seen anywhere on here:

1) Has anyone tried re-threading a hot water heater element from NPS thread to NPT thread? I would think that would work, but not sure.

2) OK... here is the dumb one... How do you wire up the 240v hot water heater element? There are two connections on the heater element and three wires on 240v line. I searched EVERYWHERE on the internet but no one really addresses this type of application.

Thanks to everyone for the tons of useful information on this website !!

19Kilo · Post by **19Kilo** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:54 pm

The heater element was the only thing holding up my still... Finally ordered them last night.... 2 1500w elements... threaded NPT, and SS half couplers to boot!

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

As for wiring up some 240 elements to 110, there is a monster thread on this page....just a couple down....or do a search.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:13 pm

One of the wires is the earth, that is generally connected to the boiler in some fashion. The other two (active and neutral) are connected to the element.

Edit....sorry, my bad! I thought you were here in Australia.

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:39 pm

Two are hot red and black
One green or white-ground
eather hot with ground=110
Both hot=220

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:59 pm

Must be something very different in your country dunderhead. I assume we're talking single phase supply.

As Coops said, 3 wires - Active (brown or red), Neutral (blue or black), Earth (green/yellow or green) for Aussie, European, British systems anyway.

Connect Active and Neutral to your element and Earth to your keg or boiler metalwork.

For single phase, the voltage will be the same regardless of connecting Active and Neutral or Active and Earth to the element because the Neutral should be at Earth potential anyway. The Neutral wires are connected to the Neutral common bar or link in your fuse box and that bar is earthed.

But do it right and connect the earth wire to the boiler especially if you have an earth leakage safety switch (ELCB or RCD) installed.

Cruiser.

dunderhed · Post by **dunderhed** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:37 pm

US Grean or white is grround
colard Black red is hot

modul8 · Post by **modul8** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:25 pm

dunderhead wrote:Two are hot red and black
One green or white-ground
eather hot with ground=110
Both hot=220

Don NOT try and tie the coloreds together. This will blow your power supply or fuse.
110v and 220v operate the same way.
You cannot get 220v from a 110v supply without a stepup transformer or similar.

Sorry but this is BAD advice. Coops and Cruiser are correct

dunderhed · Post by **dunderhed** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:26 pm

I'm annolo hillbillySo exsause my spelling
but it whold be helpfull if they wholdsay
sae th ay are from. ?

Ps Al thou I'v doun this four 40+year
and have difent idels than yours,i
I i ijoy this forim,
THIK YOU !

Ozark Shiner · Post by **Ozark Shiner** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:18 am

WOW - 7 replies in less than a day !!! Thanks.

I looked at plumbing supply and almost ordered from them. I even called them. I just can not believe that they are actually NPT thread. NO ONE ELSE ANYWHERE has NPT thread. Most people think I am a lunatic for even asking. Please let us know when you get them if they are in fact NPT thread.

Now for the wiring question.... First - yes I am in the US. What I don't understand is that from basic electricity class I thought you had current going into something (motor, heater, lightbulb, homemade whiskey still) and you had to have current coming out.

So how in the devil does it work if you are wiring both hot leads to the heater? What do you do with the common or ground wire ???

I must add that I want to wire a 240v heater as 240v so that I can quickly heat up my boiler. I then plan on switching that off to a 240v heater that is wired as 110v with a reostat so that I can "fine tune" the collection process. Of course as a complete newbie this is all hypothetical....

This is such a great place to exchange information. Thanks for everyone's help.

Dunderhead · Post by **Dunderhead** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am

in us 220 is split at pole center taped tranformer
if you use both hot wires on element =220
if you use one hot and grond = 110
if want switch betwin both you could use
a duble throw duble pole switch

YOU DO NOT TYE BOTH HOTS TO GETHER!

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:20 pm

I would set down and draw this out
3 lines at bottum mark hot neutral hot
run one line to element from one hot
run line frum element to switch (sp dt used for 2switches onelight}
run from switch to other hot and netral
so itswitces tbtween hot and neutral

hot and hot on element =220
hot and neutral=110
inbraker box every other lug is on opist sides so too side by side=220
one lug and neutral=110

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:30 pm

OK. I am interested. I am in the USA and I know my wiring very well. I am working on a kit for a 9kv power control and I intend to ship to multiple countries. I need to know, is your country's voltage 220 or 240 or 120?
If 220 or 240 do you need special breakers for more than 5 amps? In the USA we have to use 2, 180 degree out of phase 120 circuits to get 240. We have special breakers for our stoves, dryers, and water heaters because they are 240vac. These are double breakers because we use two 120 vac lines and a neutral. For our 120 volt circuits we have single breakers and usually are limited to 15 to 20 amps on those. Our 240vac circuits are usually 40, or 50 amp circuits.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:42 pm

Our household wiring here is 240V, 50Hz, 10 amp. On the provision that a suitable CCT breaker is installed at the power box we can get 15amps without to much trouble. Like Cruiser said, our three wires are active, which is brown (this is easily remembered, touch the brown and your in the poo!), neutral is blue and the earth is green. The neutral and earth are at the same potential however the earth is tied to an ELCB.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:46 pm

10 amps at 240vac that is nearly twice the USA outlet power capability. So what kind of breaker for a dryer or stove or welder?

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:50 pm

Pint, I'd have to go and look. The stove is on it's own independant CCT and is hardwired into the house. Our clothes dryers just plug in to a standard GPO and little hobby welders are just 10 amp as well. The big boys get 3 phase into the shed for heavy duty welding.

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:31 pm

My welder is single phase 240, 15 amp. Requires a 15 amp curcuit and outlet, but people have been known to just put a 10 amp plug on the end.

So they reckon

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:22 pm

NPS-Strate pipe thred
NPT -taperd pipetherd
same therd one is taperd one not.

Cruiser · Post by **Cruiser** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:31 pm

Like Coops said, our stoves usually run off fixed wiring via a 16 or 20amp fuse (or breaker). Most GPO's (General Purpose Outlets) are 10amp but usually a number of them are wired in parallel to a 10amp fuse. Heavy duty GPO's are 15amp and will only have one running off a 15amp fuse for running a welder or compressor. A normal home is supplied with 240v single phase and probably a maximum of about 50amps depending on how long the lead-in is.

I didn't realise you folks had access to 2 x 110v out-of-phase circuits to provide 110 or 220v. My apologies to Mr Dunderhead for doubting him. What he says is correct in that situation.

Cruiser.

modul8 · Post by **modul8** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:25 pm

Sorry Dunderhead

I obviously misread that too.

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:59 am

if you can excep my speling i can excep your mastaks
i have ben distilling four 40+yer worked as welder -tanks-
papper mills ss macanic-truck had to do for slef
had gardon 2arc cand froze adn mad hotch
idid thang difreint than you but what ever works
I like reading laph at some mad at some
got my egucation out behind the barn or in the barn

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:21 am

PS over the hill sliding doun the outher side
if I could do it agin

Ozark Shiner · Post by **Ozark Shiner** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:45 am

So has anyone ever tried rethreading a NPS water heater element to NPT or am I about to be the first ???

It is a cheap experiment so I will share my results with everyone.

I really appreciate the suggestion about the DPDT switch. I drew up a plan to do this and to incorporate the home-made rehostat that I read about on another post. Looks like I can flip the switch one way and have full power (6000w 240v) and then flip the switch the other way and have 1500w 120v with variable rehostat control !!!!

Uber-cool because I only have to put one hole in my boiler.

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:51 pm

My bad thats sp dt switcw
3lugs swops from one line and another
make shur everthing is heavey enufe 6ooow=
25amp shold run 4 whire one ground stove
hokup could use lead for stove .

Post by **Tater** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:25 am

Ozark Shiner wrote:
I really appreciate the suggestion about the DPDT switch. I drew up a plan to do this and to incorporate the home-made rehostat that I read about on another post. Looks like I can flip the switch one way and have full power (6000w 240v) and then flip the switch the other way and have 1500w 120v with variable rehostat control !!!!

Uber-cool because I only have to put one hole in my boiler.

I built grason stewart a dpdt from 240 to 120 volts a year or so ago.I used a switch 2- 240 volt coil contacters and a oven switch lite to show when was in 240 volts. Reason I used contacters was switchs with necessary amp ratings wernt easy found .

Post by **Tater** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:42 pm

dunderhead wrote:Two are hot red and black
One green or white-ground
eather hot with ground=110
Both hot=220

Thats two are hot -red and black the white is neutral/or commen and green is ground.Either hot to commen or ground is 120 . If its a 3 wire 2 hot and a netural then its not equipment grounded .In the usa in north carolina on moble homes and in other applications you have 4 wire 240 circuits separating the commen from equipment ground . Both neutral and ground are tied together in breaker box. If building a 240 to 120 using a switch .Id strongly urge to use the 4 wire setup that way you have a equipment ground [ thats the green wire]from still to outlet unbroken.Its just a matter of running a 4 wire from breaker box to a 4 prong outlet.

dunderhead · Post by **dunderhead** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:56 pm

Right tater
working around water should have the extra grould.

19Kilo · Post by **19Kilo** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:06 pm

Bump

Ozark Shiner wrote:I looked at plumbing supply and almost ordered from them. I even called them. I just can not believe that they are actually NPT thread. NO ONE ELSE ANYWHERE has NPT thread. Most people think I am a lunatic for even asking. Please let us know when you get them if they are in fact NPT thread.

Got my order today.
These heaters are what we are looking for.
They even had some 304 stainless half couplers on this page:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/stainles.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Kilo

tracker0945 · Post by **tracker0945** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:08 pm

A lot of plumbing threads in Australia are tapered if they would normally be used where pressure exists e.g. Heater elements, pressure valves, blanking plugs etc. Not uncommon at all.

Ozark Shiner · Post by **Ozark Shiner** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:33 am

Kilo -

Thank you a million !!! I think that is great news that there is a good source for NPT treaded heater elements.

Oh and just for the record - you can NOT easily rethread the NPS heater element to NPT. The reason is that there are only about four full threads on the heater element. It takes two or three threads just to get it started into the threading die. Therefore it bottoms out before you can get it threaded.

I am ordering from plumbing supply this morning.... (wish I would have ordered a week ago.... )

Oh well, won't be working on the project this week anyway.... it's deer huntin' season....

Home Distiller

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