Union Failure

Fittings, parrots, packing, tooling and so on.

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StillLearning1
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Re: Union Failure

Post by StillLearning1 »

Brutal wrote:
MichiganCornhusker wrote:Yes, 3/4!! Plenty big for what I'm doing and much cheaper than the 1".
I've also been using street 90's right into the ferrule to keep things clean.
Yup, I have street el's too. Surprised everyone here doesn't use them.

You are right about 3/4" being large enough. I just already built all my stuff in 1" except the steam injector. It's 3/4" adapted up to 1". I'm sure I can adapt it. Maybe it's an opportunity to redo a couple things.
Either one of you guys got a pic so I can see what your talking about? (For the reading comprehension impaired :oops: )
But what the heck do I know.....I am still learning.
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Re: Union Failure

Post by DSM Loki »

https://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/c ... -elbow.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

A street elbow is a 90* elbow fitting where one side is female and the other is male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_elbow" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Danespirit
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Danespirit »

Brutal wrote:
S-Cackalacky wrote:
Brutal wrote:Mine leak unless I wrap the copper to copper mating surface with ptfe tape. Hell they still leak sometimes then! I have to pull back the nut and carefully wrap the surface and then assemble carefully and then try to get it as even as possible.

I just ordered a bunch of these: http://r.ebay.com/LwVZyN and after I solder them up I am DONE with the shitty copper flare fittings!
Brutal, the ferrules being 1" OD, do you think they will fit well with 1" type L copper pipe?
Fingers crossed??

Dane, you say you have these exact fitting and are using them right? What kind of pipe did you use with them?
Yep, that's right..they are intended as weldferrules. I used one of them to attach a lynearm for a friend of mine. Welded a Ø 25 mm pipe to it with a I-seem and backinggas. So in my case the ferrule were flush with the pipework.
Now i googled this 1" L type pipe,and came to the Homedepot site, they had a chart there showing measurements.. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cerro-1-in-x ... /100354226" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Sound weird with so much difference in measurements.
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MichiganCornhusker
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Re: Union Failure

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Dane is correct, these are not designed to be used with 3/4" copper tube, but it just so happens that the 3/4 will slip inside the ferrule tight enough to solder. Which is great for someone like me who can't tig weld copper to stainless!
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Brutal
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Brutal »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:
Brutal wrote:I just ordered a bunch of these: http://r.ebay.com/LwVZyN and after I solder them up I am DONE with the shitty copper flare fittings!
+1
A 3/4" copper pipe fits inside the ferrule and solders up nice with silver solder.
Just got my tri clamp unions and you are exactly right. 3/4" slides inside perfect. 1' fits loosely on the outside. I think it would take some pretty tricky soldering to fill the gap between it and the 1". Looks like it will get 3/4 where I can adapt to it and I'll probably build a couple of parts over again in 3/4".
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
StillLearning1
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Re: Union Failure

Post by StillLearning1 »

Brutal wrote:
MichiganCornhusker wrote:
Brutal wrote:I just ordered a bunch of these: http://r.ebay.com/LwVZyN and after I solder them up I am DONE with the shitty copper flare fittings!
+1
A 3/4" copper pipe fits inside the ferrule and solders up nice with silver solder.
Just got my tri clamp unions and you are exactly right. 3/4" slides inside perfect. 1' fits loosely on the outside. I think it would take some pretty tricky soldering to fill the gap between it and the 1". Looks like it will get 3/4 where I can adapt to it and I'll probably build a couple of parts over again in 3/4".
So would you think the 1.5" would work with 1" pipe?

Edit: Ahh nevermimd that's a .5 difference not a .250
I had a brain fart.
But what the heck do I know.....I am still learning.
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Hound Dog »

Brutal wrote:
MichiganCornhusker wrote:
Brutal wrote:I just ordered a bunch of these: http://r.ebay.com/LwVZyN and after I solder them up I am DONE with the shitty copper flare fittings!
+1
A 3/4" copper pipe fits inside the ferrule and solders up nice with silver solder.
Just got my tri clamp unions and you are exactly right. 3/4" slides inside perfect. 1' fits loosely on the outside. I think it would take some pretty tricky soldering to fill the gap between it and the 1". Looks like it will get 3/4 where I can adapt to it and I'll probably build a couple of parts over again in 3/4".
As a quick fix could you pick up a piece of copper flashing from the hardware store, cut a strip, wrap it around the fitting to shim the gap then flow some solder? Don't know how important the 1" size is to you. 3/4" isn't that expensive really.
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Brutal
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Brutal »

Hound Dog wrote:As a quick fix could you pick up a piece of copper flashing from the hardware store, cut a strip, wrap it around the fitting to shim the gap then flow some solder? Don't know how important the 1" size is to you. 3/4" isn't that expensive really.
The total difference is only

These "25mm" weld ferrules are 25mm OD (seemed a bit larger like 25.5, but I can't find my good calipers right now.) and the inside is 22mm. The inside fits about perfect with 3/4" copper pipe, whose OD is 0.875" or 22.225mm. The ID of 1" is 1.025" or 26.035mm, and its too loose on the 25ish mm OD of the tri clamp.

1" copper pipe is 28mm OD. So the next size up the ebay guy has is "32mm." They fit the same 1.5" tri clamp. It would make sense if the OD goes up by 7mm the ID should too unless the pipe thickness increases, and it usually does. If true the ID should be 29mm, or a smidge less. So you still would end up with a 1mm or so gap. 1mm equals 0.0393701" and that's just a bit muuuch... But if the 32mm flange is thicker by even a very small amount it could make it work.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Brutal »

Seller responded and the id for the 32mm flange is 29mm.
Steam injection rig http://tinyurl.com/kxmz8hy
All grain corn mash with steam injection and enzymes http://tinyurl.com/mp6zdt5
Inner tube condenser http://tinyurl.com/zkp3ps6
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Re: Union Failure

Post by hexed »

bellybuster wrote:little bit of emery cloth to polish the mating surfaces usually helps
Tried this on my girlfriend, she just looked at me weird.
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Antler24 »

I use a 1/2" union in my still and have never had a problem with sealing. I've never had to clean it up, sand it, ptfe tape nothing. Seals up every time perfectly.
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Hilltop »

still_stirrin wrote:
moosemilk wrote:You using threaded unions? If so, try wrapping in some ptfe tape before you screw together. If not threaded, again, try some ptfe.
This worked great for me. I have to change the tape every few runs..but heck, its easy to do.

PTFE tape prevents "galling" of copper to copper joints. It also fills any surface anomalies on the cup and cone surfaces. So, wrap it around the threads and extend a little onto the cup and cone surfaces. Then tighten the union...but not too tight...just a short twist past hand tight.
ss
I was looking into unions and ran across this old thread. Often when I go into boiler rooms to replace a bad union, I find the cause is the unions themselves are welded in backwards by a rookie welder or the pipes are not inline causing leaks. Unions are designed to be welded in one direction.

Usually if teflon tape is needed the union is in backwards and the steam pressure is escaping around the threads. It only takes a microscopic gap for steam to escape. Unions also dont take the place of 90s in piping. Time and again in the field we will see two pipes that are obviously about 3 inches out of square on the line up unioned together :wtf: and leaking.

If it's an old union leaking I wouldn't be too concerned, Teflon tape it if you can but if they are new unions and are leaking turn em around and try that.
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Re: Union Failure

Post by cob »

please elaborate on the difference between frontwards and backwards.

cup or cone on the boiler side?

also remember that on a still there should be 0 pressure just flow.
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Re: Union Failure

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

cob wrote:please elaborate on the difference between frontwards and backwards.

cup or cone on the boiler side?

also remember that on a still there should be 0 pressure just flow.
+1
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Re: Union Failure

Post by zapata »

Also, since its an old thread, the ebay link isnt working so I have no clue what was being discussed. Were they just ss tc ferrules?

Anyway, unions work fine for me. Cheap ones do need polishing sometimes. I would never rely on teflon for a union, the whole point of a union is to not use it, if I have to use teflon then a standard slip fitting is cheaper, or TC more convenient.

Any setup I have that isnt 100% soldered gets a quick pressure test from a balloon at setup, before every run. I often find a slow leak at a union or TC, and just crank it a bit tighter. It just takes a minute and makes me feel a lot safer. If it holds balloon pressure, it will hold unpressurized vapor 100%. Heavy balloons sold as punching toys with a rubberband are cheap and very durable, last years in the stillin toolkit. Trust but verify is my policy for still seals (also good policy for children and business partners!).
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Re: Union Failure

Post by Hilltop »

cob wrote:please elaborate on the difference between frontwards and backwards.

cup or cone on the boiler side?

also remember that on a still there should be 0 pressure just flow.
Flow goes through the nut side first.It is just good practice to get in the habit. Most of the time it wouldn't matter, but in some applications in reverse, the service (steam, high velocity liquids, ect) will erode the union.
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