Easy flange

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eternalfrost
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Re: Super Sankey Scotch Style Still

Post by eternalfrost » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:09 am

just want to say i tried making the sankey connector and it worked beautifully. i used a big heavier gauge wire, #4 i think. it took some work to move all that copper into shape but nothing too bad.

a ball peen hammer and a few annealing cycles works it like butter

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Re: Super Sankey Scotch Style Still

Post by Hack » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:36 pm

I recently upped my column size to 2" copper pipe. So I could solder it to my mixing bowl head, I took a body hammer and peened over the edge of the copper pipe to make a flat flange on the end. It came out looking very similar to what is being done here. I used heavy wall copper pipe, which may be different than what others are working with. The reason I bring it up is it only took me about ten minutes to do. It actually surprised me how little time it took and how easy it was. If it would work with the sankey clamp, I think it would be worth a try.

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Re: Super Sankey Scotch Style Still

Post by violentblue » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:44 pm

thinking of something similar for my keg

solder it op just like shown, then spin it on the lathe to hone the shape.

on my original keg still I cut off the original tri-clover fitting and welded on a 2 1/2" one, not sure how much it helped, but its what I had around.

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Re: Super Sankey Scotch Style Still

Post by Husker » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:16 pm

I am going to work with this style adapter (making 2 adapters). However, I am going to use a 2" union. Have a little stick out on the bottom, and solder it in. Then solder on a wedge shaped "washer", and flare the bottom of the 2" sticking out of the coupler a little, so that it can be soldered to the wedge.

That way, simply tri clamp a 1/2 open coupler (open end up of course), and then a column, or pot head can be stuck into the coupler and sealed with flour paste.

I will try to get pix, as I work on this over the holiday's (whenever the wife gives me a second of "free" time).

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Easy flange

Post by olddog » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:19 pm

Just built my potstill and wanted to connect the column directly to the keg, I made the flange on 2" tube as described elswhere on this site. I then got a stainless steel pipeclip, jubilee clip or whatever you want to call it, I fluxed the flange first and then tightened the clip up over the flange, making a trough about 3/16" deep around the flange. this can now be filled up with solder and you end up with a flange which is a lot thicker than the original pipe flange. The pipe clip can now be unscrewed and being stainless and not fluxed it comes off easy. This thick flange can now be filed to the correct angle, similar to the excisting angle on the keg.
I have run my still twice now with no gaskets and no leaks, if you want to be really picky you can now face the flange with a sharpening stone,mine did not need it, but it depends on how good you made your flange. This will fit perfectly with a Tri-clip now.
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BigRedLabRat
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Re: Easy flange

Post by BigRedLabRat » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:11 pm

This sounds like a nice idea, Can you post some pics. Thanks.

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Re: Easy flange

Post by HookLine » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:20 pm

Pics would be good.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by olddog » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:59 pm

I cannot get my camera to focus on macro but see how this photo turns out
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012.JPG
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OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......

SuperDavid
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Re: Easy flange

Post by SuperDavid » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:22 pm

Its a great idea by Old dog! He showed me this the other day and I think it's a great way to make the flange thick enough for the tri clamp to bite down on.
I still have to flange the end of the 2inch but thats how I'll be doing it.
Thanks olddog!!

Image

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Re: Easy flange

Post by evilpsych » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:55 pm

dangit! why didnt i think of that! much easier and faster than dealing with copper strips and trying to get them soldered on right. I think i've found a use for all the splatter solder i still have! I could prolly make 3-4 of those 'cast' tri-clamp flanges..
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Re: Easy flange

Post by HookLine » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:55 pm

Good idea.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by Husker » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:33 am

I have been rolling the lip on my flange material (the copper). VERY easy to do, and takes just a couple minutes. I think that would add a lot of extra strength to this type of cast flange.

Up to now, I have done mine, with the rolled out edge (puts a flat T lip on the end of the 2" pipe), and then using copper wire flattened a little, drawn into a ring, and soldered on. Then grinding that to proper shape. The whole task takes a few hours, and most of the time, is getting the copper wire right shape, and getting is solidly soldered. If that time was reduced to simply puddle filling the solder, then I think the whole process could be done in a half hour or so (possibly more, to get the shape 'just right').

I will look into this also. Unfortunately, I have tossed out most of my solder over spatter, so looks like I would be using fresh stuff.

My main concern is the strength and integrity of a cast solder blob being used like this. However, if the copper tube itself was the 'base' of this flange (from rolling the edge), and the solder cast was just used to get proper material and shape, then the strength would still be in the copper. I will have to look at this this weekend.

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Re: Easy flange

Post by olddog » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:07 pm

You still need to make the copper flange first, but build up the thickness and profile with this method.
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Ugly

Re: Easy flange

Post by Ugly » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:55 am

Great idea, going to try this on my own pot still (I'm changing the size of boiler)

I was just thinking of casting a little silver/copper alloy in the crucible, coat the piece you want to form it around with anti-flux so it doesn't stick there but flux the connection point ; I can see this being super strong and super fast to do. You'd only need to polish it a little, the inside would already be custom formed thanks to the anti-flux. Have to try it on some scrap first, I can always recast. In fact, it would work well with aluminum too, but silver is nicer. This would give a really nice home made touch to an all copper unit instead of firing up the tig welder.

Great idea, really sparked a few thoughts, thanks for sharing.

Edit for typos

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Re: Easy flange

Post by SuperDavid » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:59 am

It took me the better half of an hour, but I've got my copper flanged out...it's a little rough, but I think it will do the trick. I might need to use a cork gasket between the flange and the keg because of my rough metal working skills(or lack of). Gotta get a wire brush onto the top side of the flange since the sand paper can't get into the rough bits or the solder won't stick.
Thanks again olddog! great idea!
Image
Image

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Re: Easy flange

Post by SuperDavid » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:55 am

She's ugly!! and I've got some more shaping to do....but this is where I'm up to with olddogs easy flange.
Image

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Re: Easy flange

Post by evilpsych » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:53 am

I made another one, without the copper turning - just sstraight cast solder and ground her down. holds very well. I doubt the copper beating is necessary.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by rad14701 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:09 pm

evilpsych wrote:I made another one, without the copper turning - just sstraight cast solder and ground her down. holds very well. I doubt the copper beating is necessary.
While this method should work adequately, I'd be concerned about long term durability... The copper adds rigidity that the solder alone may not provide and provides a level of catastrophic failure insurance... With a tall column the stress could be greater than the solder alone can withstand...

The copper lip method gives the greatest safety margin, at least in my humble opinion... With safety in mind, anyone considering any of the methods presented should take the stress factor into consideration... Once the height and mass reaches a certain critical point I'd feel safer with the copper lip... Shorter columns or pot stills with relatively short and light liebigs would most likely be fine with all solder...

All that said, it's always nice to see alternate solutions to the same problem, evilsyche... :wink:

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Re: Easy flange

Post by Husker » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:25 pm

rad14701 wrote:All that said, it's always nice to see alternate solutions to the same problem, evilsyche... :wink:
I feel the same way about all of the recent posting about easier and home fabricated connectors. GOOD STUFF everyone who is thinking outside the box on these items. Keep the ideas rolling.

I too, will keep bending the end of the tubing prior to building the adapter up. The copper is the strength, and the solder is the seal. I do not bend the lip as far as SuperDave, but heck, I guess I am just not super enough :)

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Re: Easy flange

Post by evilpsych » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:50 pm

oh. tried a new method other than the pipe clamp.

I used a regular sized mason jar ring lined with alu foil. came out nice and beefy.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by evilpsych » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:22 pm

Just out of curiosity, what are the specifications for the flange on a 2" (bore) tri-clamp ferrule? I've been trying to get it as right as possible by eye, but want to check my work against a known sample. I have none locally to compare to. There's no technical drawings for a machinist on the net that I can find.

i.e. - what's the angle of the taper and the thickness of the full diameter section?

By looking at my clamp, looks like around 1/16" tapering to the pipe at about a 30* angle should work by the time you fit a gasket in there.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by SuperDavid » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:19 pm

Husker wrote:
rad14701 wrote:All that said, it's always nice to see alternate solutions to the same problem, evilsyche... :wink:
I feel the same way about all of the recent posting about easier and home fabricated connectors. GOOD STUFF everyone who is thinking outside the box on these items. Keep the ideas rolling.

I too, will keep bending the end of the tubing prior to building the adapter up. The copper is the strength, and the solder is the seal. I do not bend the lip as far as SuperDave, but heck, I guess I am just not super enough :)

H.
haha I'm sure you are super enough.
Its just that generally I don't know what I'm doing...so I tend to go over kill rather than not enough.

I can't help you with the specifications there evilpsych, I just go by eye and by how well it fits in the clamp while on the keg.
I sanded the bottom of the flange hoping to get a good seal on the keg but it still had a tiny leak so I'm using 1.5mm balsa wood as a gasket. It's a great seal and super cheap. I only have a round hand file so I filed down the hunk of solder into shape until I had a ring most of the way around the flange from the clamp pressing into it. That may not make sense so I'll try taking a photo. I get the ring like that because the hunk of solder is too high but its working well now and I can always re shape or add more solder at another time.
Image

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Re: Easy flange

Post by RumBull » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:20 pm

If you are makeing the copper flange first and then adding additional solder with Oldogs method, strength is not an issue as I demonstrated in the original post
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &sk=t&sd=a
As far as being concerned about using this flange on a tall column still, I imagine my pot still has much more of a side torque load on the flange than a column would. The still itself sticks off to the side and then adding the tripple wall condenser (heavy when full of water and alc.) extending out even more puts considerable strain on that joint. I have had no issues and have been running every weekend for several months now.
new girl.JPG
new girl.JPG (44.7 KiB) Viewed 25807 times
As far as dimensions, it is 2.5" wide, and about 3/32" at the narrow side of the wedge and about 1/8" at the pipe side. You want to be careful not to make it too thick or the clamp will want to push the flange off set the keg hole. The keg flange is a little thicker than a standard triclover flange.
Last edited by RumBull on Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
7.5 gal and 15.5 gal SS keg with copper Super Sankey Scotch Style Still head.http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =16&t=8550
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Re: Easy flange

Post by evilpsych » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:34 pm

yeah. Here's my notes on the profile for the flange for proper mating with a tri-clamp... and casting technique

if you're hammering a ring out of rod or wire, or forming the end of the flange, the thickness of the copper at the outside edge should be around 1/16th of an inch. Scuff this off well with a brush or somesuch to prepare for casting.

Using the pipeclamp method (or the alu lined mason lid, wrap one or two wraps of solder around your pipe near/at the joint you want to fill. Heat up the joint to melt. If you are concerned that the solder isn't wetting certain areas, use a nail, or a piece of coathanger to move the molten solder. DO NOT USE MORE SOLDER THAN THIS!!!!

in practice, the actuall angle from the outer flange to the side of the pipe or fitting you are using should be very shallow, like between 15* and 30*.

If you overfill you will spend a lot of time with the file/beltsander/grinder getting it right.

I would consider the below picture the shoudler still a little steep for my tastes.

Image
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Re: Easy flange

Post by Hawke » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:51 pm

Yes, should be a little shallower angle than in the picture. I'm guessing about 15*.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by evilpsych » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:15 pm

Hawke wrote:Yes, should be a little shallower angle than in the picture. I'm guessing about 15*.
believe it or not, I have another one identical to that that clamps together fine as a pair..... - however, you're really tuning that edge to the sanke-fitting, which isn't a true triclamp fitting to begin with.
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Re: Easy flange

Post by Husker » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:29 pm

Moved and stickied

Also, I have merged in the original posts from RumBull, from the 'super sankey scotch still' post' to this one http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =16&t=8550 since that was the original 'how to' tutorial, which has spawned this brain-storming session building this very nice flange building method.

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eternalfrost
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Re: Easy flange

Post by eternalfrost » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:57 pm

heres a spec drawing for a 2" flange
4322K213L.GIF
4322K213L.GIF (16.22 KiB) Viewed 24811 times

myles
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Re: Easy flange

Post by myles » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:12 am

I have been following this issue for some time as I was thinking about putting 4" or 6" fittings on the pot and am a bit surprised at how expensive they are. The idea of building them from copper tube and just buying the clamp part is getting more appealing.

Have any of you considered building the flange by wrapping layers of copper braid around the pipe instead of using solid wire shaped to fit. You know the copper screening that you get on things like co-axial tv aerial cable. Or bought as copper braid from the electrical shop.

It would be quite easy to shape that into the desired wedge profile and the solder will flow right through it no problem. After all you can use copper braid to REMOVE solder when doing electrical work. Just melt the solder, apply the braid and it wicks it all away leaving a virtualy solder free work piece.

If you were to combine the turned out lip, wrapped copper braid and fill it with hard silver solder I suspect it would make a good and solid flange. Two of those flanges, and a bought in clip should be a nice secure coupling. What do you think?

EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more, if you wraped braid and then compressed it with the clamp before you solder, wouldn't you get a perfect fit to the clamp :?: Using the braid would reinforce the solder in the same way the glass does in GRP.

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Re: Easy flange

Post by HookLine » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:48 pm

Spread over the lifetime of your still, that cost is nothing.
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