Hello…. I have a couple questions.
First off, I have read the main site many times. Have done lots of reading and searches in the forums. Still can’t figure some things out.
Mostly my questions are about “cuts”. I have done an amazing two (2) runs with my clabbered together potstill. 23 quart pressure cooker, leibig condenser with icewater in its veins. Propane for heat. I’m making UJ sour mash…….
First run I got about three quarts. I collected the first cup and set it aside. The next pint came off clear, a bit sweet and was 60%. The remaining pints looked like dishwater. I collected down to 25% Saved them for the next run. Got to reading and figured I was running it too hot, hence the mash in the distillate. Total time from start to finish was 2.5 hours.
Second run, I ran the heat a lot lower. Tossed the first cup, and got a gallon of crystal clear drippins. Testing as I went, in pints, started at 60% and turned the burner off at 40%. Only because it was late and I had to get up early for work. Total time was 5.5 hours. I was still getting a good flow and feel I could have collected another ½-3/4 gallon.
I’m trying to discern heads, hearts and tails. I can’t seem to taste, smell, feel any difference. Was I even into tails at 40%? Do I just go with ABV for now? Do I let them sit for a couple days? Should I test them at room temp? The distillate is very cold coming out of the condenser. And it’s colder the hell in the garage where I’m doing this.
Or, do I just not worry about it. I’m planning on doing two more runs, then throwing it all back in the pot to distill a second time.
Any advice accepted
Newbie questions on "cuts"
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Fretman124
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what you were doing then, if you plan to rerun the distillate, was a stripping run... you want to run it hard and fast as you can without flooding the column. i wouldn't throw any product out until your doing your spirit run (2nd run of the stripped product) because the alcohol content will be higher so the methanol will come out closer together and you will have more drinking product..
as for the cuts, to start off with try the generic 80% down to 70% keep everything above and bellow this to put into ether your next stripping run or your next spirit run.. keep smelling and tasting it and you will learn the cuts by taste and smell
as for the cuts, to start off with try the generic 80% down to 70% keep everything above and bellow this to put into ether your next stripping run or your next spirit run.. keep smelling and tasting it and you will learn the cuts by taste and smell
Whiskey, the most popular of the cold cures that don't work (Leonard Rossiter)
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pintoshine
- Distiller
- Posts: 1132
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm
Smells like a rubber inner tube...
"Cuts" is the hardest thing you will ever learn in this "hobby"
It's as much about the nose as it is the taste.
In order to "Smell" the spirit without burning out your nose hairs, you have to pour a half a shot in a good tall brandy glass. Swirl it around just like the wine tasters. Now here's where it get different. When you stick your nose in the glass, open your mouth part of the way. Allow air into your mouth at the same time you breath in through your nose. This will cut the "Burn". IF YOU DON'T ALL YOUR GONNA GET IS ALCOHOL.
Having said that here is an exercise. Instead of collecting in pint jars, collect in the 4 ounce(120ml) jelly jars. Sample the stuff about every half a jar. Make sure to spit out the sample or you won't care too much when you get to the tails and the next day it will taste like crap. When you smell and taste it, make a note, yeah like a journal, on what comes to mind. I have a very good imagination and try to find something that tastes or smells familiar in the alcohol such as orange peel or grape seeds or soap.. you get the idea. In some of my rum I can taste the molasses and it comes across like coffee. After a couple times of this you will start finding a pattern. Once you get to know your still, you will know where that breaks are.
I use a pot still with a good doubler. It allows lots of flavor to come across without worrying about getting mash in my condenser from too much foam. My doubler sometime doubles as a puke box. I like the rum and corn I make in a single run. If I run my distillate twice I get nearly vodka. I like vodka sometimes but I like "White Dog" and silver rum more. I have made a very good bourbon from time to time but barrels are too expensive and besides that oak essence gives me a roaring headache.
I'll get backto the topic now.
When your stuff starts to heat the top of the condenser, smell the vapor coming off. Some say it smells like bananas some say butterscotch. With Corn it usually smalls like bananas. The first stuff you get is gonna have a lot of acetyl in it(bananas and rubbing alcohol). It usually takes about 50 to 100 ml to get past that with a 20 liter run at 5 to 10%.
There will be a definite break when the smell gets past the bananas(butterscotch). On mine with a doubler, It starts off at 70% abv and increases to 75% for the first 120ml. This is where I usually get my heads break. Yours may be different.
The second spirit usually is a bit of ethyl acetate. The smells a bit sour kinda like vinegar. This is pretty short lived. 30 to 60ml. I like the ethyl some people don't. The high ethanol will follow that and will smell mostly clean(little smell) with a bit of your mash. In the case of corn it will smell like sour canned corn.
The tails on my machine are a subtle change. I usually stop collecting at 40% for a good drink. From 40 to 15 it is hard to judge. The tails start with a faint scent of bicycle inner tube. This is a hard scent to describe. If you don't know this smell then go to the local dept. store and find a repair tube. Once you smell it you'll never forget it.
As far as tasting the spirits is concerned it is a lot like the smell. My taste buds are well tuned(deadened to alcohol) from thirty years of sampling.
The first stuff that comes off which is strong is hot. A few ml of this stuff swished around and you'll be looking for water. It is generally real hot and tastes like paint thinner. The after taste will remind you of how turpentine smells.
After a bit, it will tame down a lot. Even at a high proof 70% the heart stuff has little after taste. It will remind you of your mash. (you do taste your mash, right?).
The tails start adding a kind of soapy after taste. It reminds me of Ivory soap. Fred calls this chewy. The after taste is thick enough that you can chew it he says.
Here's the thing. Everyone's taste and smell is different.
You have to do to suit yourself. I've made a final product that I thought was trash with way to many tails. I let my friends try it and they would drink it up. I have turned out what I thought was excellent drink and friends say, Blah bland, or yuck, too hot.
Finally, after a few years, I decided I like a bit more heads than most and a bit less tails.
When I asked Fred which is the best bourbon he told me...
"The best one is the one you like the best"
It's as much about the nose as it is the taste.
In order to "Smell" the spirit without burning out your nose hairs, you have to pour a half a shot in a good tall brandy glass. Swirl it around just like the wine tasters. Now here's where it get different. When you stick your nose in the glass, open your mouth part of the way. Allow air into your mouth at the same time you breath in through your nose. This will cut the "Burn". IF YOU DON'T ALL YOUR GONNA GET IS ALCOHOL.
Having said that here is an exercise. Instead of collecting in pint jars, collect in the 4 ounce(120ml) jelly jars. Sample the stuff about every half a jar. Make sure to spit out the sample or you won't care too much when you get to the tails and the next day it will taste like crap. When you smell and taste it, make a note, yeah like a journal, on what comes to mind. I have a very good imagination and try to find something that tastes or smells familiar in the alcohol such as orange peel or grape seeds or soap.. you get the idea. In some of my rum I can taste the molasses and it comes across like coffee. After a couple times of this you will start finding a pattern. Once you get to know your still, you will know where that breaks are.
I use a pot still with a good doubler. It allows lots of flavor to come across without worrying about getting mash in my condenser from too much foam. My doubler sometime doubles as a puke box. I like the rum and corn I make in a single run. If I run my distillate twice I get nearly vodka. I like vodka sometimes but I like "White Dog" and silver rum more. I have made a very good bourbon from time to time but barrels are too expensive and besides that oak essence gives me a roaring headache.
I'll get backto the topic now.
When your stuff starts to heat the top of the condenser, smell the vapor coming off. Some say it smells like bananas some say butterscotch. With Corn it usually smalls like bananas. The first stuff you get is gonna have a lot of acetyl in it(bananas and rubbing alcohol). It usually takes about 50 to 100 ml to get past that with a 20 liter run at 5 to 10%.
There will be a definite break when the smell gets past the bananas(butterscotch). On mine with a doubler, It starts off at 70% abv and increases to 75% for the first 120ml. This is where I usually get my heads break. Yours may be different.
The second spirit usually is a bit of ethyl acetate. The smells a bit sour kinda like vinegar. This is pretty short lived. 30 to 60ml. I like the ethyl some people don't. The high ethanol will follow that and will smell mostly clean(little smell) with a bit of your mash. In the case of corn it will smell like sour canned corn.
The tails on my machine are a subtle change. I usually stop collecting at 40% for a good drink. From 40 to 15 it is hard to judge. The tails start with a faint scent of bicycle inner tube. This is a hard scent to describe. If you don't know this smell then go to the local dept. store and find a repair tube. Once you smell it you'll never forget it.
As far as tasting the spirits is concerned it is a lot like the smell. My taste buds are well tuned(deadened to alcohol) from thirty years of sampling.
The first stuff that comes off which is strong is hot. A few ml of this stuff swished around and you'll be looking for water. It is generally real hot and tastes like paint thinner. The after taste will remind you of how turpentine smells.
After a bit, it will tame down a lot. Even at a high proof 70% the heart stuff has little after taste. It will remind you of your mash. (you do taste your mash, right?).
The tails start adding a kind of soapy after taste. It reminds me of Ivory soap. Fred calls this chewy. The after taste is thick enough that you can chew it he says.
Here's the thing. Everyone's taste and smell is different.
You have to do to suit yourself. I've made a final product that I thought was trash with way to many tails. I let my friends try it and they would drink it up. I have turned out what I thought was excellent drink and friends say, Blah bland, or yuck, too hot.
Finally, after a few years, I decided I like a bit more heads than most and a bit less tails.
When I asked Fred which is the best bourbon he told me...
"The best one is the one you like the best"
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theholymackerel
- retired
- Posts: 1432
- Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:39 pm
This is from a recent post I made on the subject of "cuts".
(Learn to use the search function... intellectual laziness is frowned upon here.)
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=#6706391
(Learn to use the search function... intellectual laziness is frowned upon here.)
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=#6706391
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Eric Clampet
- Novice
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:25 am
Re: Newbie questions on "cuts"
One of the most informative things I have read yet! I am looking forward to my next run!
Re: Newbie questions on "cuts"
Very informative. This confirms a lot of my own run data. I started using 4 oz. baby food jars by my second run. The lids suck but the jars are perfect for discerning subtle flavor differences associated with the proof drop between the foreshot, head 1, head 2, head 3 and so on all the way thru the much larger proof drop between the last heart and tail 1. I have since taken to blending the last head , all the hearts, and tail 1.. Tail 1 is usually 80 proof with a lot of flavor left so I see no point in not drinking it. By mixing the last head thru the first tail, I end up with about 3 liters that is between 110 and 120 proof to put into my 3 liter charred white oak barrels. In the 3 liter barrel, my aging time for Bourbon is about 2 months due to the small barrel size. I toss the first or second 4 oz. jars depending on the result of my burning spoon tests and the Proof. My potstill always makes 164 proof shine on head 1 and maybe even thru head 2 or 3. As soon as I see the proof drop to 160 I know I am into my blendable heads. True bourbon does not use anything that is distilled at more than 160, so all of my early heads (above 160) get mixed with any tails below 80 proof (usually cloudy) and are used as thumper primer for my next run. From my last three runs, my "thumper primer" has increased only by about a quart so this method not only does not waste anything, it saves it up to be used in another run. When I get 5 gallons built up, I will do a spirit run using only this with my accumulated backset. Just to clarify the "burning spoon test" I mentioned.. I take a stainless steel spoon and dip out a little of my first head or two after tossing the first jar or two.. Then I light the spoon with a BBQ lighter and turn out the lights.. If the flame starts out yellow, then there is still methanol in the sample.. It is still a foreshot. If the flame is mostly pure blue ( minute traces of yellow, then it is ethanol.)
Re: Newbie questions on "cuts"
You can't go on the burn test for methanol. Remember, we are dealing with other compounds as well, many of which can change the color of the flame. Safest way to go (and surely safer than setting things on fire) is to discard the first 250ml for every 20L of wash on pot still, and 50ml for every 20L on reflux. It's not just methanol you want to get rid of anyways.UrToopid wrote:Very informative. This confirms a lot of my own run data. I started using 4 oz. baby food jars by my second run. The lids suck but the jars are perfect for discerning subtle flavor differences associated with the proof drop between the foreshot, head 1, head 2, head 3 and so on all the way thru the much larger proof drop between the last heart and tail 1. I have since taken to blending the last head , all the hearts, and tail 1.. Tail 1 is usually 80 proof with a lot of flavor left so I see no point in not drinking it. By mixing the last head thru the first tail, I end up with about 3 liters that is between 110 and 120 proof to put into my 3 liter charred white oak barrels. In the 3 liter barrel, my aging time for Bourbon is about 2 months due to the small barrel size. I toss the first or second 4 oz. jars depending on the result of my burning spoon tests and the Proof. My potstill always makes 164 proof shine on head 1 and maybe even thru head 2 or 3. As soon as I see the proof drop to 160 I know I am into my blendable heads. True bourbon does not use anything that is distilled at more than 160, so all of my early heads (above 160) get mixed with any tails below 80 proof (usually cloudy) and are used as thumper primer for my next run. From my last three runs, my "thumper primer" has increased only by about a quart so this method not only does not waste anything, it saves it up to be used in another run. When I get 5 gallons built up, I will do a spirit run using only this with my accumulated backset. Just to clarify the "burning spoon test" I mentioned.. I take a stainless steel spoon and dip out a little of my first head or two after tossing the first jar or two.. Then I light the spoon with a BBQ lighter and turn out the lights.. If the flame starts out yellow, then there is still methanol in the sample.. It is still a foreshot. If the flame is mostly pure blue ( minute traces of yellow, then it is ethanol.)
Most that run a thumper as well will charge it with some fresh wash. If you are putting in your feints, when it gets to temp they are going to cook off just as they would in your boiler. You'll have all those heads in addition to new heads at the beginning, and same with tails at the end. Some do use feints though . . . it's preference . . . but it also effects flavor.
As for using proof, it may be somewhat of a guideline, but it can drastically vary for different parts of the run. On one run, you might get hearts setting in at 160 proof, the next run at 140 proof, even if it's the same recipe. All it takes is a slight temperature fluctuation to anger the yeasties and have them take a major crap in your ferment for awhile. Hmmmm. . . . . i think i should call my wife saccharomyces . . . slight fluctuations piss her off and i get crapped on . . . if she asks why, i'll just say "cause you are my little yeast" and she'll think it's cute.
Re: Newbie questions on "cuts"
Yea, the pretty blue flame in the dark after I've tossed 250 ml of fores, gives me a warm fuzzy though 
I am on run number seven now and I am doing AG and all has gone pretty well.
My best recipe so far, I have done several times with almost identical results; this is a Cracked Corn/Distillers Malt/ Malted Rye grain bill with no cane sugar added. I originally used about a half gal. of Karo light corn syrup (no high fructose) to get my abv up to 11%, but have since done it sans Syrup. I ended up with about 8.5 % PABV (potential ABV) . After the first run with the Karo, I figured out that I can get more sugar out of the corn by better conversion techniques like gristing the cracked corn before cooking, not quite cornmeal.. and by cooking longer AND getting a better starch to sugar conversion using the Decoction Method for malting. I am using a four-step decoction. its a lot of work, but it gives me something to do while I am running my previous wash.
I cut everything together except the early heads and tails less than 70 proof, which left me with 3 liters at 120 proof and aged it in a new charred white oak barrel and sampled it at 1 month and it tastes just like 1835 (my favorite Bourbon.. made here in Texas) BTW the 11 %PABV run with Karo light, and the 8.5 %PABV without Karo light both tasted the same after one month in the barrel. I am really anxious to see how they will taste in another month, which is the recommended time (2 months) in the 3 liter barrel (according to a couple of sources)
I am not priming the thumper with my feints now. I am saving those at apx. 60 proof by combining head 1 and tail (last) and tossing them in a glass carboy with a stopper for a future feint run.
Someone please explain a little about backset and how its used.. I currently see backset as good for lowering the pH of my mash and not much more.. now the stuff in my thumper after a run has a useful ABV percent that I believe I can strip later along with the feints..
I am on run number seven now and I am doing AG and all has gone pretty well. My best recipe so far, I have done several times with almost identical results; this is a Cracked Corn/Distillers Malt/ Malted Rye grain bill with no cane sugar added. I originally used about a half gal. of Karo light corn syrup (no high fructose) to get my abv up to 11%, but have since done it sans Syrup. I ended up with about 8.5 % PABV (potential ABV) . After the first run with the Karo, I figured out that I can get more sugar out of the corn by better conversion techniques like gristing the cracked corn before cooking, not quite cornmeal.. and by cooking longer AND getting a better starch to sugar conversion using the Decoction Method for malting. I am using a four-step decoction. its a lot of work, but it gives me something to do while I am running my previous wash.
I cut everything together except the early heads and tails less than 70 proof, which left me with 3 liters at 120 proof and aged it in a new charred white oak barrel and sampled it at 1 month and it tastes just like 1835 (my favorite Bourbon.. made here in Texas) BTW the 11 %PABV run with Karo light, and the 8.5 %PABV without Karo light both tasted the same after one month in the barrel. I am really anxious to see how they will taste in another month, which is the recommended time (2 months) in the 3 liter barrel (according to a couple of sources)
I am not priming the thumper with my feints now. I am saving those at apx. 60 proof by combining head 1 and tail (last) and tossing them in a glass carboy with a stopper for a future feint run.
Someone please explain a little about backset and how its used.. I currently see backset as good for lowering the pH of my mash and not much more.. now the stuff in my thumper after a run has a useful ABV percent that I believe I can strip later along with the feints..