Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby thecroweater » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:12 am

neither slack lime or quick lime are very soluble , so what. The lime does not need to be dissolved to lower the pH, milk of lime will lower the pH much much much more then lime solution, fact. If you have in fact have had such a catastrophic pH crash quick lime will adjust it much faster than slack lime, you'd have to use lye to have a more drastic affect. Will it effect the flavour (carry over)? Well yes if you get ridiculous with the amount there is some usual weird carry over flavour but the tests I did it took a fair darn bit to get that result :thumbup:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
thecroweater
Site Mod
 
Posts: 4505
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:12 pm

Well now I'm just double frustrated. saturated water for 24hrs with the Calcium hydroxide and over a 90 min period added a FULL QUART of water that turned the dip strip PURPLE off the color chart. but after the last 15 min wait post stirrin...STILL NOTHIN!! strip stays bright yellow. WTFO? how do I wrestle this ph up?? I DO happen to have food grade lye in the pantry for makin pretzels...Will it REALLY require that caustic a solution(no pun intended).

GD
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby StillerBoy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:02 pm

Guerilla Distillah wrote:Well now I'm just double frustrated. saturated water for 24hrs with the Calcium hydroxide and over a 90 min period added a FULL QUART of water that turned the dip strip PURPLE off the color chart. but after the last 15 min wait post stirrin...STILL NOTHIN!! strip stays bright yellow.

JD.. if I were in your shoes, with all that you have added to the wash, and the low level of fermentation that has taken place.. I would junk it /right it off and start afresh..

I've done maybe sixteen or seventeen Odin's rye bread 27L wash in the last six month, and all fermented dry with no issues.. try a new one similar to the one I do.. and see how it turns out..

Something you have not mention is which rye bread you used.. pumpernickel bread is the one to use, other rye bread may not work out as well..

Mars
Attachments
Picture 0022.jpg
pumpernickel rye bread used
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby NZChris » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:40 pm

Guerilla Distillah wrote:Well now I'm just double frustrated. saturated water for 24hrs with the Calcium hydroxide and over a 90 min period added a FULL QUART of water that turned the dip strip PURPLE off the color chart. but after the last 15 min wait post stirrin...STILL NOTHIN!! strip stays bright yellow. WTFO? how do I wrestle this ph up?? I DO happen to have food grade lye in the pantry for makin pretzels...Will it REALLY require that caustic a solution(no pun intended).

GD

That wasn't what I told you to do with it.
User avatar
NZChris
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 4313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:42 pm

Just simple German rye bread baked fresh at a local German bakery. Gonna pitch it and wash my hands.

GD
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Yummyrum » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:31 am

Wow , if a wash made with just a loaf of bread can be sooo acidic that that much Calcium Hydroxide can't bring it around then I'm fucked if I would eat it .

Seriously though , is it possible that the bread was loaded with preservatives and thats what stopped the fermentation ? ....and the pH thing is just some seriously off meters and strips

Is there any chance that all your pH testing is completely up the creek .
Where I work we have several pH meters and two datalogger pH probes . We calibrate them with three point buffer solutions to ensure they are reading right but often they are slow to respond when measuring solutions and the meters are particularly bad as they are a few years old . The datalogger pH probes are much newer and respond faster to changes in solution . All pH meters are useless in demineralized water and need some sort of ions in the water before they read accurately.

We also have indicator strips and these too are marginal at best and again react slowly .

The best and most reliable pH indicator we use is good old universal indicator solution . We use that to double check all the fancy stuff is in the ball park .
User avatar
Yummyrum
Rumrunner
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby NZChris » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:17 am

If the advice you run with doesn't work, don't use that technique in the future expecting a different result.
User avatar
NZChris
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 4313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby thecroweater » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:58 am

Preservatives was my first thought but when I looked at the product I couldn't see anything that would inhibit fermention, equally I can't see anything that would cause such a pH drop or why it couldn't be corrected. Your reading of such a low pH makes me wonder.
http://www.dimpflmeierbakery.com/produc ... rye-bread/
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
thecroweater
Site Mod
 
Posts: 4505
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:38 pm

ok, got home and was preparing a short funeral and then a sad 5-6 trips to the toilet with a 5 gallon bucket when I figured I should take a final analytical look at it. First, damn if its not STILL pushin CO2. slowly but obvious production in airlock. cracked fermenter lid and put my ear to it...regular rice krispies in milk. went ahead and tasted it...noteably less sweet and more sour, and nothing "off". All this compelled me to take a SG...down to 1.035. OG 1.070. So I simply cant brimng myself to toss it. gonna less it go to this weekend and strip it no matter what the gravity. We shall see...

GD
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby StillerBoy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:47 pm

GD.. it is starting to sound like its low or missing neutriance.. I re-read the thread, either I missed it or you didn't mention it, either way give it a couple tsp of DAP and see what happens..

Mars
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:51 pm

And fresh hell... we all just assumed you already diagnosed everything else. Shame on us, I guess. What the hell is the temp? Sounds cold to me.

P.s., I have, once, successfully striped a 1.04. But you better know what your doing, there. :shock:
"Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond."
User avatar
ShineonCrazyDiamond
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1489
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: Look Up

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:17 pm

can I sub tomato paste for DAP? I don't have any... And my fermentation room is an upstairs bedroom with a thermostatically controlled space heater...toasty as balls in there.

GD
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby StillerBoy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:25 pm

Guerilla Distillah wrote:can I sub tomato paste for DAP? I don't have any

I'm of the view that tomato paste will affect the overall taste of the finish product.. but, at this state of the game, what have you to loose.. on the other hand it could provide valuable info..

My vote is try it and see what happens..

Mar
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:32 pm

Dosage for 25 gals??


GD(the mad mash scientist)
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby thecroweater » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:33 pm

tomato paste will not greatly affect the flavour its why its often used in neutral ferments. 25 gal well a fair bit I would say at least a whole jar (500g) give that ya ferment is partly done that might be enough
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
thecroweater
Site Mod
 
Posts: 4505
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby NZChris » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:58 pm

Guerilla Distillah wrote:gonna less it go to this weekend and strip it no matter what the gravity. We shall see...

Slow down buddy. Sometimes it just takes as long as it takes. if you are in a hurry, get another fermenter and put something in that.
User avatar
NZChris
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 4313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Pikey » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:39 am

+1 on NZ Chris.

By all means give it a bit of nutrient, but it's not even a week since your first post and we do have a drop in Specific Gravity. It's still fizzing. When winemaking, often you don't even bother looking at them for 5 weeks or so as long as there is activity.

Give it a couple of weeks of patience, then see how it's dropping. :wink:

[edit - I'm minded of a cartoon in one of CJJ Berry's winemaking books - where the guy is in his "Winery" stirring ingredients and the wife comes in and says "Hurry up dear, the guests are arriving..." ]
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:33 am

Update…

Got home from work this morning and took a gravity reading and it is down to 1.015... and still sounds like a bucket of rice Krispies in milk. At this rate, it should probably be ready to strip next weekend. Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone.

GD
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby StillerBoy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:04 am

Super.. and thanks for the update..

Mars
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby papapro » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:30 pm

Guys: this looks to me like wild east infection this is the way I make sour crout or pickle cucumbers the process creates vinigar.
he probably had air access. I my opinion the Wash is gone. If anyone wants good sour crout or pickle cucumbers recepe just ask me.

I can post in food posts,

Papapro
Yes I am a Novice with 40+ years of doing this hobby
distilling is like sex the slower the better and everyone is happy
fermenting is opposit to sex the faster the better
User avatar
papapro
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:56 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Pikey » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:29 pm

Well pleased for ya GD 8) - do keep us informed :thumbup:
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Yummyrum » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:42 pm

Out of interest , hows the pH now
User avatar
Yummyrum
Rumrunner
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Mid North Coast Aussie

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby shadylane » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:02 pm

Guerilla Distillah wrote:Is this protocol gonna be necessary in EVERY wash or just this rye recipe?

To me the term "wash" suggests it's short on nutrients and pH buffers. But long on sugar :lol:
As someone once said :lol:
It's easier to avoid a stuck ferment, than it is to re-start it.
I Figure... Malt, Pugi's yeast bomb for nutrients and crushed oyster shells for pH control
Should increase your odds for future success.
User avatar
shadylane
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 5249
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby StillerBoy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:10 pm

shadylane wrote:It's easier to avoid a stuck ferment, than it is to re-start it.

In agreement there shady.. and in the eight years of doing on average of 5 - 26L wash/mash a month, I have yet to have stuck ferment.. yes I've had ferment that did not behave as they should of, but had the ingredient to correct it.. the first 24 hours is when the ferment has to be watched, if something is to go wrong it will happen justing that period more than at any other time, in my experience...

Unforunately, not all new comers research properly and acquire all the necessary ingredients and tools required in the making a wash /mash.. and then we are ask "what went wrong"..

Mars
StillerBoy
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Pikey » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:49 pm

It's a bit like a car engine (Petrol) - Piston going up and down, compression, right amount of petrol in cylinder, spark at the right time and no obstruction in the exhaust - IT WIll go !

For a ferment - Sugar, yeast, nutrient, acid, oxygen and temperature within yeast tolerance band - It Will Go !

[Edit - you CAN over-sugar ! that will kill your yeast]
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Guerilla Distillah » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:41 pm

OK...an update:

It never did adjust Ph, just took forever to finish out. finally ran it at 1.018...just a single long slow spirit run from the strained/clarified wash. ended up with 1 gal of 80%ABV after a meager dilution from 91%. Oaked with home charred medium toasted white oak for two weeks. proofed down to 55% and left the oak chunks in...just had a 2 finger glass on ice...WELL, unless my taste budz are broke(and I will admit readily I am very new booze as a 25 yr beer fiend) turns out I LOVE rye whiskey. this is F'in FANTASTIC!! There is a unique spice I have never detected in ANYthing "rye" from my brewing exploits. While rye was never a real focus for me I have dabbled in beer mashes with it from time to time, NEVER a flavor like this. I actually need to go out and taste something commercial for a true context but I am SUPE pleased with this and will be making it again. Will make efforts to get out in front of my Ph dilemma from here out but in 20+ yrs of beer making I've NEVER encountered stuck mash like that. Thanks to everyone who truly tried to help and poopoo to those that felt the need to include the passive-aggressive notion that this stumbling block of mine was relative to my lack of effort at research, while VERY new to distilling, not at ALL new Zymurgy in general.

GD

GO Mariners
Guerilla Distillah
Novice
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Can anybody help with my Ph issue?

Postby Pikey » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:30 pm

I guess you're pleased you persevered with it then ?

Sooo pleased for you :D

Interesting that it worked through the "low ph issue" and came up trumps. Something to bear in mind for the future - yeast quite likes lowish ph and it is not always a critical problem to have Low ph.

once again, I'm really glad to hear of your success. :thumbup:
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Previous

Return to Mashing and Fermenting



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: OtisT and 5 guests