basics: cracked corn to sugar

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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wscrst
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basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by wscrst »

Please help me get started making corn whiskey. The recipe I have from the home distiller's workbook asks for 1 gallon of water, 2 pounds of cracked corn, 1 cup malt, and 1/2 pound sugar. It states to boil the mash for 2.5 hours and then cool. However, my other reading in other books and on line suggests that other heating procedures might be better. Do I really need to boil the mash for 2.5 hours or do I boil it for a while and then bring it down to 150-160? Can someone give me quick and simple advice about the temperatures and times for heating cracked corn to get it to turn to sugar? I would really appreciate it (burned the heck out of the first batch).
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by HolyBear »

Ok... it's good that you can read. I've learnt to put a few letters together meself... jes joking :D

Now this is your first post and I understand you really want to jump in there and "git r done", but ya got to understand that this is a hobbie and it takes time..
First go to the "welcome center" to and introduce yourself. Tell us about where yer from and what your interested in. What are you gonna be making it with? Etc, just a proper intro please.
Then familiarize yourself with "the rules we live by" and the "new distillers reading lounge" next you'll be wanting to read "the tried and true recipes" thread particularly UJSSM thread.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by MitchyBourbon »

Welcome to HD wscrst,

wacabi1 is correct, you should give us a proper intro.

In the mean time I will try to answer your questions as best I can without knowing exactly what kind of corn whiskey you want to make or what kind of still your running.

2 1/2 hours is a lot of mashing for sure. Since you did mention you were using corn and malt I will assume you are making a bourbon whiskey. If this is the case thats's good cause making bourbon whiskey is what I do. Two pounds of corn per gallon of water is a lot for anyone that has not done this before and since you are asking for help I will assume this is somewhat of a learning experience for you. So here goes.

Grain bill per gallon of water:
1.5 lbs cracked corn per gallon of water
0.5 lbs 6 row malted barley per gallon of water. (Malted 6 row has a diastatic power of about 190, and you need 30 per total pounds of grain)

Process:
Add corn to water and bring to a boil for 60 to 90 minutes. What you are looking for here is thick goo. I usually just bring it to a low boil for 30 minutes and take it off the heat and insulate it and let it slowly cool for an hour. If it is not thick and gooie I bring it to a boil a littel longer, insulate and let sit till it is thick and gooie.

Check the PH of the corn goo. You should shoot for about 5.2. If you can't check the PH just assume it is a little high and add a table spoon of lemon juice per gallon of water.

Bring the corn goo to about 148 F
Add the 6 row malted barley, the temp will come down to about 145 F, stiring every 5 - 10 minutes and hold the temp for 45 minutes.
Do an iodine test to see if you have successfully converted all the sugar. If not fully converted, continue to hold temp at 145 -150 F for another 30 min. It should be converted now.

You can add sugar if you want to raise the alcohol content but if you want it to be a real whiskey... Don't do it.

I don't like to ferment on the grain so I strain the liquid off before I ferment. You can do what you want.


There you have it, that's pretty much what I do. Come back and let me know how this work out.

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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by wscrst »

Thank you.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by kobold »

i like this recipe, one question: if i dont have 6row, how much 2row should i use instead :?:
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Prairiepiss »

kobold wrote:i like this recipe, one question: if i dont have 6row, how much 2row should i use instead :?:
Find out what the DP is of the malt. You need 30dp to a lb of grain.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by rubber duck »

kobold wrote:i like this recipe, one question: if i dont have 6row, how much 2row should i use instead :?:
DP= diastic power, diastic power= then amount of enzymes in a grain. Dp is measured in a term called litner. So Like PP said you need 30 litner per lb of grain minimum. Now being that your new I would go a lot higher as your going to mess it all up,( everyone does on their first few tries). Go more like 50 or 60.

6row is 180 litner, a standard American 2row base malt can be have a wide range of dp but most of the time it's 140-160.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by NcHooch »

the last bag of Rahr 2-row that I bought had the DP=166 printed on the tag , that's some powerful 2-row!

...so according to MB's recipe, a 2-row like that would get the job done
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by kobold »

thank you all, guys for the :idea: :)
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by fooznfool »

I would just like to add that its great to see the help you more expeirenced folk give to us newbies. I can read (and do) on here for hours and the info contained cant be descibed in words. Thanks again for the education!!! :thumbup: :clap:
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Jimbo »

wscrst, your book has a fatal flaw, but mitchy got it right. Boil the corn, not the whole mash. If you boil the 2 row youll kill the enzymes on the malted barley that do the starch conversion. Dont ever let the malted 2row get over 155. Rahr 2row has great diastatic power (enzyme level for starch conversion) and can be used in place of 6row for 20% to corn or other fermentables with no problem. You could probably go less if but youll have to hold at mashing temp longer. I wrap blankets around the mash tun to hold temp better when I want/need to do a long mash.

Quick tutorial on mash temp, altho it applies more to beer brewing than likker fixens: There's 2 enzymes in malted barley that do the work, alpha amylase and beta amylase. Beta-Amylase chops the starch chains from the end 2 molecules at a time into perfectly fermentable glucose. Alpha -Amylase randomly chops the starch into molecules of random length sugars, most are fermentable, some are not. So here's where it gets fun (for beer making) Alpha works best at 156F or so, beta at 148F. For liquor distilling you want ALL sugars to ferment so you can distill them off, so 148F is best. For beer, you add flavor, mouthfeel, a touch of sweetness etc going higher in temp (up to 156) to get more random sugar molecules in the mix.

Fun stuff this. Of course I dont need to tell any of you that :)

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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by sizzlnchef 1 »

What would happen if I didn't add the barley to this? High allergic to barley yeah strange I know.....
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Jimbo »

Corn has no enzymes to convert the starches to sugar. They do malt rye and wheat tho. Can you have one of those? The level of enzymes might not be as high as barley malt so check before you determine the percent split of corn to whatever malt you use. With most barley malts 10-20% of the total in barley is usually sufficient.

If you cant have rye or wheat, Ive read you can buy the enzymes, alpha amylase and/or beta amylase are the ones you need. But doing it that way is beyond any limited knowledge I have on this stuff. Maybe one of our seasoned master distillers can chime in?
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Soggy Bottom Boy »

jimdo64 wrote:Corn has no enzymes to convert the starches to sugar..........
Ummmm........, I'm pretty much a n00b here.
Cracked corn has no enzymes, but if sizzlnchef 1 is allergic to barley, I'm fairly sure that you can malt whole corn all by itself. It sounds like it's kind of a pain to do it, but may be worth the effort for him though.

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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Prairiepiss »

You both are right. If barley can't be used. You can use another malt in its place. Wheat, rye, oats, or whatever malted grain you have available. Make sure to check and correct measurements for the DP of the malt used. Or the corn itself can be malted. Malted corn only has enough DP to convert itself. Or you can use powdered enzymes available from a homebrew store.

But just cooking the corn won't get you anything but a bucket of starch. It will need the enzymes to convert the starches to sugars.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Tater »

Where did info come from that corn has only enough en zines to malt itself. ???? .
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Prairiepiss »

Ok so I made a mistake. I should not have said malted corn only has enough enzymes to convert itself.

Maybe I should have said. Malted corn has a low DP compared to other grains. And you should do further research on the malting process and what can and can't be done with malted corn.

Here is a good thread that can help you with that. If you so chose to go that route.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=26528
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Usge »

Just another vote of encouragement for you to stay with things and learn to mash your own grains (instead of using processed sugar). But, I'd start with something a little easier.

2lbs of corn, to 1 gal of water...boiled for 2 hours is more than likely going to give you glue. It will probably cool to one big solid chunk. Happens to everybody early on. I found starting with 1lb of grain per 1 gal of liquid (not counting malt) a lot more manageable and helped me learn the mashing process until I could start adding more grains. The yeilds are not great (like 3 to 3.5%) but the whole process works better and keeps you from getting things too thick while you learn what it takes to cook the corn properly. There are tricks to getting more yeild out of it...like sparging grains after and using that water to start the next batch. Or..you can always add sugar (called a "thin-mash") to up the yeild on it....although the flavor/taste will not be as good.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Dnderhead »

i thank its easier just to malt corn,,all of it, as home made malt is not all that high in enzymes and all mite not sprout..and no "cooking" necessary.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by skingsr1 »

So to 1 gallon of water you would have 1.5 lb cracked corn and .5 lb 6 row, so total2 lbs material to 1 gallon of water?
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Fastill »

Gluten free beer brewers might have an answer to your dilema, being alergic to barley. Maybe??
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Dnderhead »

if its gluten that bothers you the you should have no worries .distilling removes this.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by NcHooch »

Don't forget that modern wheat malts have a very high DP .
The red and white wheat malts from Briess are in the 200 range.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by DBCFlash »

Dnderhead wrote:if its gluten that bothers you the you should have no worries .distilling removes this.
I have a gluten allergy and I can attest to this. I have bad reactions when I drink beer, but distillation does not carry over the gluten. Now if your still pukes a little there is a possibility that some could make it through, but if you do stripping runs and follow them with spirit runs I doubt a trace of gluten will make it through.

I'm no doctor. If you have a really bad reaction to the gluten in grains simply handling them or breathing in the dust might be dangerous for you. I've never had those issues.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Rain Distillate »

Jimbo wrote:wscrst, your book has a fatal flaw, but mitchy got it right.

Quick tutorial on mash temp, altho it applies more to beer brewing than likker fixens: There's 2 enzymes in malted barley that do the work, alpha amylase and beta amylase. Beta-Amylase chops the starch chains from the end 2 molecules at a time into perfectly fermentable glucose. Alpha -Amylase randomly chops the starch into molecules of random length sugars, most are fermentable, some are not. So here's where it gets fun (for beer making) Alpha works best at 156F or so, beta at 148F. For liquor distilling you want ALL sugars to ferment so you can distill them off, so 148F is best. For beer, you add flavor, mouthfeel, a touch of sweetness etc going higher in temp (up to 156) to get more random sugar molecules in the mix.

Cheers.
I've done quite a bit of reading and I still have yet to find anyone that uses both alpha and beta on the same run. As distillers we try to achieve as close to 100% fermentable sugars as we can.

Thinking about doing an AG cracked corn.

My thought is. Use betas on rise initially to help thin. Cook forever. Then add alpha at 180. When temp naturally drops to 150 add beta.

Wouldn't using alpha first at high Temps begin breaking starch molecule chains up and when Temps drop and you add beta, wouldn't the betas finish off the partially broken down starch molecular chains? Reaching nearly 100% conversion? Guess I'm more curious of why I haven't seen both used. Insight would be splendid.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Jimbo »

rd,

With beer you can 'favor' one enzyme over the other with your mash temp but they are both still working. And if you dont arrest the conversion with 170 sparge water after an hour of mashing, then yes, the beta will start whacking at your sugars as the wort cools, and you wont hit the FG you might be shooting for. But this game is for beer.

Cooking corn, and doing mashes for distillation is a different beast, and you want as many fermentable sugars as possible. And dealing with cooked corn is a mother without some high temp enzymes. Adding high temp enzymes in the 180's F makes life so much easier. Then hitting it again with barley malt or another enzyme at 150 will maximize the conversion. Ive always had the best luck with real malt for this last bit. I like the flavor of malt in a recipe, and my ferments always go better with malt on the bill. But thats just me and there's many who will argue 100% unmalted grain and lab enzymes work just fine. Koval runs 2 500gallon all enzyme mashes a day, but their whiskies arent on my go to list either, for whatever sets of reasons... age, enzymes, too many plates etc.

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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Tapeman »

I 'cheat' a lot compared to most of the purists on this site that we all read with enthusiasm. I envy their experience and hope to one day have the time necessary to devote to this fantastic hobby. My cheat is using both enzymes and malt for full conversion and flavors. I have a batch of wheated bourbon aging that has so much flavor that it might never be ready to drink. It's been 5 months and still too wheaty, but I'll drink it anyways cause it's very smooth. Im going to cut with oaked water to increase that flavor. Anyone ever tried that before? My runs are small but I've built up a decent supply of likkers to enjoy.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Tapeman wrote:I 'cheat' a lot compared to most of the purists on this site that we all read with enthusiasm. I envy their experience and hope to one day have the time necessary to devote to this fantastic hobby. My cheat is using both enzymes and malt for full conversion and flavors. I have a batch of wheated bourbon aging that has so much flavor that it might never be ready to drink. It's been 5 months and still too wheaty, but I'll drink it anyways cause it's very smooth. Im going to cut with oaked water to increase that flavor. Anyone ever tried that before? My runs are small but I've built up a decent supply of likkers to enjoy.
Nothing wrong with "cheating". I do the same. I may mash with no malt and use enzymes, or use malt and still use enzymes just to be sure. I happen to want to have 90%+ brew house efficiency. To each their own, but I don't see a flavor hit.
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Pikey »

Tapeman wrote:I 'cheat'

....... Im going to cut with oaked water to increase that flavor. ........
That's novel, don't remember seeing it before - How do you "oak the water " ? 8)
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Re: basics: cracked corn to sugar

Post by Tapeman »

Water plus toasted sticks microwaved in a canning jar until boiling. Screw on the lid to seal, the pressure draws out flavors very quickly. I use it to dilute if the product isn't oaky enough.
Works for me...

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