Malt Extract

[Don Quixote]

After a forum search I can't find any post where someone has used Malt Extract. If I'm short on time and buy a few cans of 3.3lb Muntons LME I'm assuming it would work. I guess my question is how well? It ultimately would depend on how the extract was mashed and what variables were used but that's hard to find out with a typical can. I'm willing to give it a shot but if someone else has tried it I'd love to hear the results.

[nerdybrewer]

After a forum search I can't find any post where someone has used Malt Extract. If I'm short on time and buy a few cans of 3.3lb Muntons LME I'm assuming it would work. I guess my question is how well? It ultimately would depend on how the extract was mashed and what variables were used but that's hard to find out with a typical can. I'm willing to give it a shot but if someone else has tried it I'd love to hear the results.

I've used it.
It pukes like a mother, it's got unfermentables, it's not really the "best" and it costs more than AG.
However you asked if it works, yes it does work.
I recommend using a smaller than usual boiler charge and adding butter or olive oil to reduce puking.
I have heard that adding enzymes can make it better.

[Truckinbutch]

Got no clue . Find so much in 'Tried and True' to keep me busy that I don't have time to go off on a tangent .

[Doctor Evil]

It pukes like a mother

+1

[brat]

Malt extract is mashed at a higher temps so you don't end up with a thin watery brew. So you'll end up with a higher f.g. and as someone mentioned above you'll get a lot of puking. LME or DME for that matter are not ideal for distilling but if you do use them am sure the final product will taste fine.

[Pikey]

I use Malt extract in "Pikey's easy Scotch" all the time. No problems at all. This is supposed to be used with added sugar and that's what I do.

1 Can is about right for 25 Litres of beer. Well I don't need all that flavour because it is condensed by the stilling phase. So 1 can / 100 litres and 20 - 22 kg sugar. a little DAP, a little Citric acid and a nice clean ec 1118 yeast.

Maybe one day I'll do an AG brew - but somehow I doubt I can be messed with all that clat !

[edited bacause I forgot link ! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coopers-Malt- ... 2CSbplQL6A ]

[ Edit 2 to say - does "Muntons" have hops in it ? - I specifically use Coopers because it doesn't ! - but don't be scared of it - Highly recommended and I just run it with a full pot like any other wash. Great mild flavour on a single run - no "smokiness" of course - but that is only in the "wierd" Scotches anyway ]

[bilgriss]

The two disadvantages of extract are 1) cost and 2) it's mashed at higher temperatures to allow an extract beer to have more body, even when adjuncts are added. As has been mentioned, that will encourage puking and lower yield, despite the added cost. Otherwise, it'll work fine.

[Pikey]

The two disadvantages of extract are 1) cost

Compared with what ? - You sure you're taking ALL costs into account ?

and 2) it's mashed at higher temperatures to allow an extract beer to have more body, even when adjuncts are added. As has been mentioned, that will encourage puking and lower yield, despite the added cost. Otherwise, it'll work fine.

I don't have any problem with it puking at all.

[nerdybrewer]

The two disadvantages of extract are 1) cost

Compared with what ? - You sure you're taking ALL costs into account ?

and 2) it's mashed at higher temperatures to allow an extract beer to have more body, even when adjuncts are added. As has been mentioned, that will encourage puking and lower yield, despite the added cost. Otherwise, it'll work fine.

I don't have any problem with it puking at all.

Pikey first off I don't mean to offend you at all - but... (you always know there's a but coming when a post starts off like that)

Yours seems to be a recipe for a flavored sugarhead, not the same critter as a whisky.
I've used enough LME in a batch to produce a malt whisky and it does puke in the still.
It takes a lot of LME to make a 70 gallon batch and yes that is expensive even buying in bulk at a discount.
You can also do a partial mash adding specialty grains (peated barley for example), no sugar added, and get some more flavor in your whisky and maintain the easier than AG nature of using extract. That's still a lot more expensive than using AG.

I've seen enough members here catch hell for calling a sugar head something it isn't.

[Pikey]

Pikey first off I don't mean to offend you at all - but... (you always know there's a but coming when a post starts off like that)

Yours seems to be a recipe for a flavored sugarhead, not the same critter as a whisky.
I've used enough LME in a batch to produce a malt whisky and it does puke in the still.
It takes a lot of LME to make a 70 gallon batch and yes that is expensive even buying in bulk at a discount.
You can also do a partial mash adding specialty grains (peated barley for example), no sugar added, and get some more flavor in your whisky and maintain the easier than AG nature of using extract. That's still a lot more expensive than using AG.

I've seen enough members here catch hell for calling a sugar head something it isn't.

Aha

It's semantics !

I've had the same on winemaking forums where they insist anything made other than with pure grape juice cannot be called a "Wine" and in brewing where anything not made purely with hops and malt =cannot be called a "beer"

Are you seriously saying that you have stuck enough LME into a pot to just ferment the small amount of sugar remaining in the extract ? Those Extracts are made specifically to give flavour and are Intended to be fermented with additional sugar - it's just in the nature of the beast !

You can't just throw hundreds of dollars into a pot because of the way they make the extract and then claim the "moral High ground" because you feel you have compllied with some "rule of distilling" which says "no added sugar.

However many times did you have to distil your "extract Scotch", to get it down to an acceptable flavour ?

And while we're doing "Semantics" you can't call it "Whisky" however you made it unless you did it in Scotland !

However, thanks for clearing up the point and I'm not really surprised your "Soup" puked if that is really what you and the others did do !

[Mikey-moo]

Yep. My all LME run puked like a champion. +1 for adding butter to stop that happening though.

Interesting take on it though from Pikey... using the LME just for flavour in a sugar head. Might give that a try someday

[Skipper1953]

Are you seriously saying that you have stuck enough LME into a pot to just ferment the small amount of sugar remaining in the extract ? Those Extracts are made specifically to give flavour and are Intended to be fermented with additional sugar - it's just in the nature of the beast !

That is the first time I have ever heard/read that bit of... I call BS.

[Pikey]

Are you seriously saying that you have stuck enough LME into a pot to just ferment the small amount of sugar remaining in the extract ? Those Extracts are made specifically to give flavour and are Intended to be fermented with additional sugar - it's just in the nature of the beast !

That is the first time I have ever heard/read that bit of... I call BS.

Go to yur brew shop and read the label on a "Beer kit" - they're all full of the same BS !

[Pikey]

Yep. My all LME run puked like a champion. +1 for adding butter to stop that happening though.

Interesting take on it though from Pikey... using the LME just for flavour in a sugar head. Might give that a try someday

Try it Mikey - You won't be disappointed !

Easy peasey - cheap and give it 3-4 weeks on toasted charred oak, 25 ml of cream sherry and a couple drops of vanilla extract. You'll be getting close to a Glenmorangie. Need to drop some heads and tails back in for the flavour profile though.

[bilgriss]

Pikey all of what you state is essentially true, but we're talking apples and oranges. Both really good fruits, but different. I'm comparing extract to malted barley in an all-grain mash. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

As far as my statements, I'm trying to help the OP who has no prior experience with extract, not challenge your protocol.

[Pikey]

Thank you for that bilgriss

I too was simply trying to point out to OP and others that there was a way of using LME to make "fake" Scotch which is both easy and cheap. Yes, if you just compare the grain bills, then AG is cheaper possibly, but when you take into account the fact that you need a lot of different (and expensive?) kit to do an AG and the costs of the electric / propane / water when doing multiple mashes and mutiple distillations. Then take into account the Time element at whatever your hourly rate is and the waters do get very "muddy" indeed cost wise.

However, go to any brewing forum and say you make your beer using "Brew kits" and they will not recognise that as a valid method. If your not "mashing and sparging" malt (preferably home malted) you're just "Not one of us". That being the case, I'm a little unsure that using solely LME or DME, without adding sugar to make "fake" whisky is truly a "natural way" any more than using a "sugarhead" incorporating Malt Extract is.

Now since Don Q did not state he was intending to use Only LME, but was simply asking if "anyone" has used it? He also stated that he was wanting a quick way and I thought the replies were somewhat discouraging. I felt it encumbent to point out that I use LME regularly and it can be used in a very quick, easy and truly cost effective way, to make a product, which I have refined a little to be a good sipping whisky, which I find comparable with my favourite Premium Brand. Not in a truly "authentic way", but then just using the extract in the first place removes the claim to "authenticity" in my view.

Anyway, now we have published views of Both alternative ways of using Malt Extract to make "facsimile" Whisky whereas according to the OP Don Q, there was none before and we've managed to get here without ripping each other's heads off That has to be a good thing !

I would encourage anyone whose curiosity has been piqued by my method, to give it a try, modify it if you like and let us know how you get on !

All the best

P

[doktorno]

Dear Pikey,

I like your stile of doing drinks, very precise, and you are brave to defend your attitude.

1. I have one Very important question for me. I have Copper Alembic Still. After fermentation I suppose that I will get liquid with 10-11% of alcohol. I have to distill it two times, to get close to 68-70% of alcohol, to put in on charred oak? Do you use Alembic or Column still? Or, I can make just one distillation to get around 40% of alcohol and put that weaker spirit on charred oak? Please give me your kind instructions.

2. How much Cream Sherry you add per one liter of drink? 25ml for complete job ( I suppose that you get somewhere around 25 litres of whisky from 22kg of sugar and 100l of water). So, do you put 1ml of Cream Sherry per 1 liter of 40% whisky? Same questions for vanila drops?

Sorry for my long questions.

Best Regards,
doktorno

[cuginosgrizzo]

Dear Pikey,

I like your stile of doing drinks, very precise, and you are brave to defend your attitude.

1. I have one Very important question for me. I have Copper Alembic Still. After fermentation I suppose that I will get liquid with 10-11% of alcohol. I have to distill it two times, to get close to 68-70% of alcohol, to put in on charred oak? Do you use Alembic or Column still? Or, I can make just one distillation to get around 40% of alcohol and put that weaker spirit on charred oak? Please give me your kind instructions.

2. How much Cream Sherry you add per one liter of drink? 25ml for complete job ( I suppose that you get somewhere around 25 litres of whisky from 22kg of sugar and 100l of water). So, do you put 1ml of Cream Sherry per 1 liter of 40% whisky? Same questions for vanila drops?

Sorry for my long questions.

Best Regards,
doktorno

Hi dok. I know the questions are not for me, but I'll answer to some.

1) you'll find almost everywhere around this forum that oaking at drinking strength (40% ABV) is not ideal as it tends to extract bad flavours, tannins, from the oak. Instead if you oak around 65% ABV you get caramel and vanillin taste.

2) your expected yield is way optimistic. 22kg sugar in 100 liters water will give you around 8% ABV ferment. Which means that you have 8l alcohol at 100% ABV. You are not going to extract all, and you are going to lose around 50% of this to the cuts and some to the angels. I'd expect at most 10 liters whisky at drinking strength.

I hope this helps, and I'll let Pikey answer the other questions.

[Pikey]

Hi doktorno, thank you for those kind words.

Firstly 22 kg sugar made up to 100 litres with water, will give a 12.9% abv wash according to the site calculators

http://homedistiller.org/calcs/sugar_sg

That is not the same thing as adding 22 kg sugar to 100 litres of water.

I use a proportion of 1 kg made up to 5 litres with water, which gets close to 12% but slightly lower. This is my standard fermentation proportion, for all my washes.

As with most recipes, they evolve and as it happens, I put a wash down a couple of days ago - 2 cans of Coopers Amber Malt Extract 40 kg sugar, made up to 200 litres with warm water. I started by letting some of my cooling water run into the barrel, then opened the cans and tipped in the LME. The cans were rinsed with the warm water coming out of my discharge tube. The sugar was then tipped in out of the packets. I suppose some dissolved and the rest justt sank and formed a layer on the bottom of the barrel. This isn't a problem, the yeast will sort it out.

5 tsp citric acid and about 3/4 sachet "Tronozymol" yeast nutrient and an hour of oxygenisation using aquarium airstone pump were all added after the barrel was filled.

Normally I use a Lalvin EC 1118 yeast but this time after good success on a rum ferment, I pitched 75 grammes of Allinson Bread Yeast as a trial. A 300 watt fishtank heater set at 23 degrees is what i normally use. (This may be low for bread yeast, I shall see)

The ferment goes until the beer tastes bitter and the Specific Gravity is a little below 1 - (around .997 is good)

A portion of this then goes into my 25 litre tea urn boiler (electric) along with any "feints" from my last "Whisk(e)y" run, and is run fairly slow. I run what is effectively a pot still, with a 1 metre column to the take off, in 1" copper pipe. I fill the boiler up to the "Max" mark - so 25 litres.

I like to believe that the steam condensing on the walls of my column, gives me a little "Passive reflux" and your Alembic Head, is supposed to do likewise I believe. What size still are you running ?

From the 25 Litres I throw 100 ml as "Foreshots", then because I have done this before, I take 750 ml as "Heads and keep these separate.

My distillate starts a little below 70% abv and I draw it fairly slow (Pencil lead stream) until I start tails- This occurs on my setup for this wash at about 50%abv, when I have about 3.0 litres - 4.0 litres (Depends on the amount of feints, but at head temperature ( my setup only for this specific wash) of 95-96 degrees. The tails are taken in smallish jars as some will be added back according to taste. My ageing spirit will be between 58 and 63 abv.

If I couldn't get the abv in one distillation and had to do a spirit run, I would dilute the spirit with backset to redistil - not water as this wash is designed to be the correct flavour in a single run and I would be worried about losing flavour in a second distil You could use wash to dilute it as well.

SOme heads and early tails are added back by taste - Nowadays, most or all of the heads go back in and around the first 1/3 of the tails. This is a fairly new proportion and I used to just use the hearts. It may be that the pendulum has swung a little far and I may use less in future, though at the moment I'm content.

I am now adding 50 ml of cream sherry to around 4.5 litres of whisky - so you could work off 10 ml /litre, but this is cheapo sherry and the previous addition was using "Harveys", so again judgement is called for. As for the vanilla essence, I used to use 1 cap (tiny bottle) for the whole 4.5 litres, But the jar I did before the last had too much Vanilla taste, so I stopped it for the last jar and it has come out fine. I think this change was down to my toast and char - specifically, I charred the oak less deeply - really just being careless and found I was getting more vanilla. The last jar was also done re-using the previous oak, so was second usage oak. It turned out fine.

I hope that helps and that you do give this wash a try

All the best
p

[doktorno]

Thank you for your kind and detailed explanations! Now, I have the clear vision.

I use traditional copper pot still, woden fired, 30l, picture is here: https://imgur.com/a/dNkYv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I will have to use traditional "double stage" distillation method for fruit brandies. I Think it was also the old way for making Whisky, long time ago.

- First run will be for getting "lowvine". We have to distill fermented mash until we measure 5%abv "at the pipe", which means it is measured while leaking. I think this lowvine will have abv more then 35%. Now we have to use this clear liquid for the second distillation.

- In second run we will have 3 fractions. First fraction we call "firstborn part", and we throw it away. It is 1% of the lowvine volume, so we will throw away 300ml. Second fraction we call "middle part" or "heart". We collect middle part untill we measure 40%abv (at the pipe). Third fraction we call "last part" or "tail". We collect tail untill we measure 10%abv. And we stop second distillation. We use tail in next run - mix it with the lowevine.

We collect middle fractions untill we use all the lowvine, in multiple distillations.

Complete midlle fraction = heart - will have more then 65% of alcohol, and we will put it on charred oak. I will ask you next time how you make your own charred oak. Next week we will prepare and ferment mash and distill it.

I have dark LME, i see you use amber. Maybe I should buy light type, and mix it with dark? What do you think? I like the smell of dark LME.

Also, dou you think is good to double the quantity of LME (because of the distillation method), so to use 2 cans for 100l of water?

Waiting for your kind comments.

Kind Regards,
doktorno

[Pikey]

Hi dok,

Having bought Dark Malt, I'd run with it - I only bought Amber, because I understand it has more fermentable sugars in it and Amber malt is what the beermakers use to give the alcohol content, but we're using sugar to do that, so no big deal.

Yes I saw the picture of your equipment on another thread - I assume the pot is copper, built into a fireplace with a little chimney - I like the look of those - might aspire to making one myself !

When you say you make "brandy", I'm thinking a "palinka" or similar is that right ? There are masses of threads on toasting and charring oak on here "T Pee" has a great thread on it with an important chart of temperatures.

I understand the double distil process and most Scotch distilleries do at least two and most use a partial triple distil method it seems.

I agree with your concern that you may lose flavour double running up to 68-70% and agree that your additional Malt Extract is a good place to start in overcoming that. Your low wines at 35% could be reduced a little using backset or wash to maybe 28% ? to distil to just over 60% maybe ?

NZ Chris, does a method whereby he strips down to his required %abv just by leaving the still to run on.

THis pulls through more of the Third level or "Tails" as we call them. This allows the Flavour from the tails to be smeared back into the Spirit run, adding to complexity. As I understand it, the Scotch distilleries do not discard anything and even with their multipe distils, all the alcohol and flavours not used in this barrelling, are kept within the system and added back into the next distill. Recent threads on the "Scotch" distilleries - seem to indicate they may do likewise.

There are many ways foreward in our craft and in many ways it is very good to find people from Europe, with a solid tradition of distilling through many generations joining the forum. Something I for one, wish I'd had

Scotch seems to have quite a lot of "heads" and also "Tails" within the bottle, but we religiously discard the small cut of "Foreshots" irrespective of what else we include. So I advise to be careful to not be too strict with your cuts if you are looking to get a "Scotch" type flavour. I should point out however that my choice of brand to Target, is NOT one of teh peated ones. It is a mild and gentle sipping whisky. There are other threads aiming to emulate a "Laphroaig" type of flavour.

A great deal of the flavour of Scotch, comes from the barrel wood - well cured Quercus robur or similar, is what I use.

[zapata]

Here is a tried and true glen morangie clone with a malt extract option. It's a lot heavier on malt extract than what seems to work for pikey. I can vouch for it and just about any reasonable variation on it. Btw, I was surprised to see I couldn't find it posted here so apologies for the external link:
http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... =11&t=1062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[doktorno]

Hi Pikey,

now I understand - If I want to get "gentle and smooth taste", and I like that, I have to put more heads and tails. Not to be so strict in the cuts. Also, I will dilute lowwine with the wash, and make final spirit less stronger (62% maybe).

My good friend is Fruit distilling master, for making fruit brandies, we call them "Rakija". He is 40 years in that field. Few years ago he made just awesome whisky from AG. He lives in Serbia. He used barley and corn mix. Also two species of oak, for aging.

The other person I know, also made extraordinary AG whisky few years ago. He lives in Western Europe, and he use traditional Serbian Alembic Still (Rakija style). He won the prize for the Best "New Make Spirit" few years ago, in the competition of Japanese and Scottish producers. And sold 500 litres for the price of 75 Euros for 0,7l. According to this story, this kind of still, and style, is ideal for whisky production.

Hi Zapata,

thank you for your advice. I will study that post carefully.

[Pikey]

Hi Pikey,

now I understand - If I want to get "gentle and smooth taste", and I like that, I have to put more heads and tails. Not to be so strict in the cuts......

Sorry if I have mislead you dok, - To get really"Gentle and smooth" make strict cuts and just use the hearts. However, this will leave the spirit lacking in some of the flavours and without the "alcohol bite" associated with a commercial Scotch. These are the elements we achieve through adding back some "Heads and tails" - You have to balance and juggle the amounts according to your own tastes.

[Pikey]

This is the Glenmorangie which I rather like.

That says "Original" and is claimed to be ten years old. I do not taste "smoke" or "Peat" in it.

Interesting post zapata - I would point out however, that it is NOT a "Tried and true".

Note that the instructions for making a mash / wash are very limited with regard to the amount of malt to be used in the AG. However if we take the US rule of thumb of 2 lb per gallon as a starting point - we could say maybe 12 lb ? - but we know already that he is using 2 kg "Smoked" - so lets be generous and say 6 kg which is 13.2 lb plus say the 2 kg of smoked - so 17.6 lb malt. Does that sound reasonable ?

Now lets look at his "Malt extract" extrapolation. 2kg smoked malt - PLUS 6 kg of malt extract - so 17.6 lb !

So is he saying that pound for pound malt extract provides the same amount of flavour and sugars etc as untreated malt ? or is he simply pointing out that he has never actually done this wash ?

Have you actually Tasted malt extract ?

I think this fallacy was originated in Smiley's book "Making pure corn whiskey" That's the first place I've seen it and as seems to be common these days, people have just copy and pasted ideas as well as words - This seems to be the pervasive gist of the thread in which we write at the moment.

6 kg of malt exract (which is what he recommends to make 25 litres {in addition to the 2 kg of malt}) is Intended to make 100 litres or therabouts of "drinking beer" - That is the equivalent of four "Brew kits". "Brew kits" are meant to be used with sugar.

Come on lads, where's your capacity for "critical thinking" - if we oldies fall for it - what's the hope for the youngsters ?

I use less malt extract than if I was making drinking beer, because I get enough flavour out of what I do use. That's all

{Edit - arithmetic I read his 2 kg malt as 2 lb]

[Edit 2 - If we use the above arguments, we can perhaps say that 1.5 kg Liquid Malt Extract is sufficient to make say 25 litres of drinking beer, because that is what it is sold to do. Now perhaps we can do a "wavy hand" assessment that 15 kg malt would make a similar drinking beer, so perhaps we can say that pound for pound, LME has 10 times the flavour of malted barley ? ]

[zapata]

Sorry pikey, but you'll get zero agreement with me that malt extract is "supposed to be" or "intended to be"watered down and sugared up. Just ain't the case. Even Cooper's makes several products they say work better than sugar, some of which actually have more malt extract! And coopers is one of the very few extract manufacturers or distributors who suggest watering down and sugaring up.

I've made too many beers (and whiskies) with all extract, and used sugar with extract where appropriate to thin it out (belgian tripel for example) to think otherwise. Every beer supplier on the planet sells recipe kits with 100% malt extract and no sugar, (including coopers).
Commercial breweries use all extract. Awards are won with all extract. Yes its true, 1 or 2 extracts are marketed to be used with sugar, but the collective opinion of the market, the hobbyists, the expert tasters, even the manufacturers who peddle sugar recipes are clearly moving in the opposite direction. There is a reason you sound kinda lonely in a sea of people who think beer and whiskey washes are better without sugar. Its not because we got hoodwinked by Smiley!
This "fallacy" didnt start with smiley, it starts with hundreds of years of history using malted grains to produce wort. Malt extract was invented to concentrate wort. Water is removed, that is all (ignoring things like caramelization and mailiard reactions not germaine to this conversation). No sugar is removed from the wort in making extract, which is why the overwhelming majority of people use malt extract diluted with water, not sugar. Malt extract is dehydrated wort. Not dehydrated wort with something extra added so it can be made up to 5 times more wort than it started as.

Btw, I take it you don't recognize the author of the recipe I linked? Harry is retired but was a pillar of the community, of course he tried the wash! And so have many others, myself included.
6 kg of liquid malt extract made up to 25 liters makes run of the mill wort/wash with an og of 1.070. Steeping 2kg of peated malt would bump og up to 1.085-1.090.
Absolutely nothing strange there, thats homebrew 101 for the last 30 years. Forgive the jab, but you would know that too if you made beer that didnt come out of a can and require sugar! Its so basic in fact, here is my simplified overview of making an extract whiskey.
Dilute malt extract to 1.070 - 1.090
Pitch yeast and ferment until done
Distill twice in a pot still, making appropriate cuts on the 2nd run.
Age on used oak of choice.

All grain, partial mash, all extract and sugar heads are all valid approaches. They are NOT equal, each has it's pros and cons. If you want to thin your wash out with sugar and are happy with the results I 100% respect that opinion. I even recognize it as valid advice to share with others.
Can you do the same?

[Pikey]

............Interesting post zapata - I would point out however, that it is NOT a "Tried and true".

Note that the instructions for making a mash / wash are very limited with regard to the amount of malt to be used in the AG. However if we take the US rule of thumb of 2 lb per gallon as a starting point - we could say maybe 12 lb ? - but we know already that he is using 2 kg "Smoked" - so lets be generous and say 6 kg which is 13.2 lb plus say the 2 kg of smoked - so 17.6 lb malt. Does that sound reasonable ?

Now lets look at his "Malt extract" extrapolation. 2kg smoked malt - PLUS 6 kg of malt extract - so 17.6 lb !

So is he saying that pound for pound malt extract provides the same amount of flavour and sugars etc as untreated malt ? or is he simply pointing out that he has never actually done this wash ?

Have you actually Tasted malt extract ? ...........

Yes I recognise the name - "Harry", was the one who published a library of pretty much all known distilling books - and had to take it down - wasn't he ?..........

I am however no great respecter of the "fallacy of venerable authority" either !

The assessment I made above that "Harry" was in error by equating the quantity of malt extract exactly to the quantity of malt ? You haven't commented on that one ?

[Edit https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coopers-Real-P ... ds=coopers ]

[Edit 2 - love it that the cheeky buggers think the mug punters will pay £5.20 for 1 kg sugar ! - Perhaps they will ]

[zapata]

Harry's library was perfectly legal and had extensive DRM cooked into it. My memory was that he chose to take it down, he was not forced to if that was what you meant.

Pikey, YOU did the equating of the quantity of malt, there is no error in the recipe. You assume a grain weight based on a rule of thumb you don't understand. Given that you don't do AG and this is an extract thread, I will be brief in explaining it. Note the AG recipe says shoot for 1.070, exactly the same og you get with 6 kg liquid extract diluted to 25 liters. This is typical of a beer recipe with AG and extract options. The only difference will be the contribution of the steeped peated malt to the extract version which is appropriate since the extract version will not finish as dry because the extract is produced with a beer wort schedule not a whiskey wash schedule.

Regarding that Cooper's kit, note this:

To Make This Kit You Will Need 1kg Of Brewing Sugar Or Beer Kit Enhancer

What is this "beer kit enhancer"?
http://store.coopers.com.au/coopers-bre ... 3-1kg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Coopers Brew Enhancer 3 contains a high proportion of Light Dry Malt combined with dextrose and maltodextrin. The substantial quantity of Pale malt, maximises the malt character of your favourite brew whilst the dextrose and maltodextrin improve the mouthfeel and body, delivering a creamy head and avoiding any residual cidery flavours. The ultimate enhancer for all beer styles where a fuller flavour is desired.

Even cooper's says you get more malt character with more extract, and less sugar. And they are one of the only people pushing sugar in the first place!
In fact, browse through cooper's site, you will see more recipes with all extract and no sugar than you will find using sugar.

Again, there is nothing wrong with pushing a sugar head. I'm simply objecting to criticisms of things you don't seem to understand and misleading statements about how things are meant to be done. I won't speak to how another man ought to make or enjoy his whiskey, but I can say with certainty of experience that diluting extract to a reasonable og with nothing but water makes a good replacement for an all malt wash. Replacing malt or extract with sugar will dilute the malt flavor with the taste of pot stilled sugar shine proportionally to how much is used.

ETA if you want to do some figuring of your own, try plugging various numbers for malt, extract or even sugar into
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/ ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ignore small discrepancies unless you know how adjust target volumes, mash specifics, brewhouse efficiency etc from brewing to stilling averages. Just set boil time to 0, and set all volumes to the wash size.

[Pikey]

zapata, as I understand it Harry retired due to health issues about 4 years ago.

You state his recipe calls for a mash gravity of around 1.070. 2 lb malt properly mashed in 1 gallon (US) should give around 1.050, so 3 lb should give around 1.075.

3 lb per gallon in a 25 litre mash is in "wavy hand" terms 18 lb - Now my assessment was I believe 17.6 lb ? of MALT.

He then calls for 6 kg of Malt extract plus 2 kg malt, to produce the same flavour profile, in order to make "Scotch" in the style of Glanmorangie. ie 17.6 lb of Malt extract with a little malt.

Now it can be considered a good thing that you defend your friend, but sometimes people write things which are clearly wrong !

This is one of those cases mate. Removing the peated malt from the equation, his premis is that 13.2 lb of MALT will produce the same flavour profile as 13.2 lb Malt Extract.

This is cleary erroneous.

Basically 1 x 1.5 kg can of Coopers Malt extract is designed to make 40 pints (Uk) of beer - that in "wavy hand" terms is 22.5 litres and yes they do want to sting the mug punters for another £5.20 for a kg of sugar on top ! But we have free will and do not need to fall for that one That will give a flavour profile, with the added sugar, probably a little less than the 3lb in the gallon, so there is perhaps a case to be made for a little more malt extract and additional sugar to reach his 1.070 - But nowhere near the FOUR times the quantity he calls for. LME is providing Flavour in my washes, that is all - using it to try to provide all the fermentables is in my opinion, incredibly wasteful and pointless, because most of the flavour will be left in the pot and you will need to multiple distil to simply get rid of the "Overflavour"

Now look at what you wrote about "Beer enhancer"

.....

To Make This Kit You Will Need 1kg Of Brewing Sugar Or Beer Kit Enhancer

What is this "beer kit enhancer"?
http://store.coopers.com.au/coopers-bre ... 3-1kg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

........... combined with dextrose and maltodextrin. The substantial quantity of Pale malt, maximises the malt character of your favourite brew whilst the dextrose and maltodextrin improve the mouthfeel and body, delivering a creamy head and avoiding any residual cidery flavours. The ultimate enhancer for all beer styles where a fuller flavour is desired.

.

You will note that the sugar is an "either or" with the "Beer enhancer" - they also sell "Priming drops" - just little sugar lumps to put in your bottles !

Now ".... whilst the dextrose and maltodextrin improve the mouthfeel and body, delivering a creamy head and avoiding any residual cidery flavours......."

Is all very good of course, IF you're making beer, but not worth a fart when making Scotch as it won't distill over. Your own distilling expertise should tell you that.

We're not trying to make some "Award winning beer" here, just to get a base beer for distilling.

The use of the figure of 6 kg Malt extract as equivalent to the malted grain in that recipe is clearly wrong and also an extrenmely expensive mistake. Surely you can see that now ?

Or is your continued defence of the figure due to something else ? Cognitive dissonance perhaps ?

[zapata]

Dood, its way simpler than that. I have actually made every variety of beverage we are talking about.
All malt, beer and whisky
All extract, beer and whisky
Malt + sugar, beer and whisky
Extract + sugar, beer and whisky
Steeped grains + extract, beer and whisky
All made with my own hands and tasted with my own palate

So I actually know that I know what I'm talking about here, you have clearly decided otherwise so I won't bother addressing any more particulars as it is just starting to feel like tit for tat bickering. If I'm wrong, I apologize. Ask again and I'll be glad to explain in minutia anything I have said if you actually want to understand it. Otherwise enjoy your perfectly valid sugarhead but please don't bash different approaches that you have niether tried nor understood.