Malt Extract

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: Malt Extract

Postby Pikey » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:01 pm

In honesty - I've never had a "dreadful" one :o

But as an old winemaker, I don't have an issue :)

time nd tide cure most things :wink:
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby nerdybrewer » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:45 pm

kiwi Bruce wrote:
Pikey wrote:You have to do a ferment and follow an idea, then distill and taste, age and adjust the next protocol from where you got to , to where you want to go flavour wise. Otherwise use one of the "Tried and True" recipes.


Never a truer word spoken/written :lol: Your right...work with the results of your last effort...make the adjustments that you think will move your effort in the right direction...make a new wash, ferment and distill...age, taste :- repeat

To any nu-bees reading this...you MUST keep damned good notes. If you don't you'll end up repeating yourself...wasting your time and coin and drinking your mistakes. Most of these were, for me anyway, not that terrible...however some were like sucking canal water through a straw. You can keep these to a minimum and keep moving forward, if you keep good note.


It can still be up to chance, you still have to avoid making the same mistakes over and over.
Not that I know anything about that... ;)
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby doktorno » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:31 am

Dear Pikey and friends,

We did everything according to your recipe, but with double qty. of LME.
It was 2 weeks ago. SG was 1080.
We are fermenting in old vine cellar, air temperature is 15 C. Fermentation is going slowly.

Temperature of the liquid is 16 C.
Now is 1050. Smell just fantastic. Beautifull smell. We used Bayanus Yeast - it can work at minimum 5 C. Doing his job but I think too slow? Added 100g of yeast to 200 litres of wash. 45 kg of sugar in 200l of water.

Is it necessary to heat the liquid, and how? Or let it go on this way - in cooler conditions.

I know that some extra-class beers are made in cooler enviroment.

Maybe we can use hot water in plasic bottles to warm the liquid?
Or to add extra DAP.

DrNo
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby kiwi Bruce » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:33 am

doktorno, the higher you can get your temp, within reason, the better the chances are for ester production and a really fantastic whisky. I don't know if you can get this where you are, you may have to use e-bay, the hardware stores here sell long electric heating cords to heat and de-ice gutters in winter, this should be long enough to rap around a 200 liter barrel twice or more. Try and get your temp up to 25 C or as close to it as you can...you can even drop an aquarium heater into it. It will work the way you have it...it will just take some time to come down...and remember you'll not get to a 1.001 end point, LME has a fair amount of unfermentable malt sugars, so 1.010 or a little lower would be good.
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby goose eye » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:46 am

Get you a hot water heater element.
Wire it right with way to control temp an just drop it in your barrels


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Re: Malt Extract

Postby Pikey » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:41 am

doktorno wrote:Dear Pikey and friends,

We did everything according to your recipe, but with double qty. of LME.
It was 2 weeks ago. SG was 1080.
We are fermenting in old vine cellar, air temperature is 15 C. Fermentation is going slowly.

Temperature of the liquid is 16 C.
Now is 1050. Smell just fantastic. Beautifull smell. We used Bayanus Yeast - it can work at minimum 5 C. Doing his job but I think too slow? Added 100g of yeast to 200 litres of wash. 45 kg of sugar in 200l of water.

Is it necessary to heat the liquid, and how? Or let it go on this way - in cooler conditions.

I know that some extra-class beers are made in cooler enviroment.

Maybe we can use hot water in plasic bottles to warm the liquid?
Or to add extra DAP.

DrNo


Hi DrNo, I've got one going too and it's been about 5 weeks now. Dropped my hydrometer, but the taste is getting bitter, so won't be long now. This time of year, it's slower due to tempertures of course. I'm going to build a fermentation cabinet to hold a couple of fermenters.

Yeah bring your temps up if you can, but mine always take a fair while. I think it may be the fairly high abv's I'm aiming for in the wash.

I toy with the idea of doing lower abv's to speed it up, and double distil - but I've no idea how much flavout I'd need to start off with - quite a lot I reckon. Your idea about doubling LME might be a way forward - and then using wash to bring the first distill down to around 15% (for my setup) might do it.
Are you going to double distil ? or 1.5 ? or single ?

Hope it goes well for you - I'm sure it'll be fine.
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby thecroweater » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:20 am

What do you guys think the malt extract is extracted from :lol:
Add sugar, don't add sugar and adjunct don't add adjunct doesn't matter it will affect the yield but it depends what ya happy with. As far as semantics goes with home made stuff for personal use we are not locked to marketing strategies. That said if some ones says something like if sugar is added its a rum they are a delusional tool. Whisky by the way is a term used to describe more than Scotch whisky, for instance Tasmanian whisky and if ya really want to get pedantic no drink aged less than two years in a barrel is deemed to be whiskey or whisky but that is just regulatory bullshit. If the primary flavour is grain and the result is the characteristics associated with whiskey then for all intended purposes what you produced it whiskey.
Another interesting fact, all alcohol is from fermented sugars, no sugar no buzz juice, that simple. OK so not all sugars are equal but they seen well will be when the yeast gets hold of them because if the yeast can't break down what ever long chain sugars you have into simple short chain sugars.... no buzz juice. Different sugars will sometimes give ya different results but that will likely have more to do with how a given yeast breaks it down and what can't be fermented. Is AG better than a sugar head? Long term yes most of the time in my opinion anyway is a sugar bump better than a purely AG? hmm now that can depend and can get subjective, is any AG better than the other two? Ha not nearly
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby Pikey » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:54 pm

thecroweater wrote:What do you guys think the malt extract is extracted from :lol:
Add sugar, don't add sugar and adjunct don't add adjunct doesn't matter it will affect the yield but it depends what ya happy with. As far as semantics goes with home made stuff for personal use we are not locked to marketing strategies. That said if some ones says something like if sugar is added its a rum they are a delusional tool. Whisky by the way is a term used to describe more than Scotch whisky, for instance Tasmanian whisky and if ya really want to get pedantic no drink aged less than two years in a barrel is deemed to be whiskey or whisky but that is just regulatory bullshit. If the primary flavour is grain and the result is the characteristics associated with whiskey then for all intended purposes what you produced it whiskey.
Another interesting fact, all alcohol is from fermented sugars, no sugar no buzz juice, that simple. OK so not all sugars are equal but they seen well will be when the yeast gets hold of them because if the yeast can't break down what ever long chain sugars you have into simple short chain sugars.... no buzz juice. Different sugars will sometimes give ya different results but that will likely have more to do with how a given yeast breaks it down and what can't be fermented. Is AG better than a sugar head? Long term yes most of the time in my opinion anyway is a sugar bump better than a purely AG? hmm now that can depend and can get subjective, is any AG better than the other two? Ha not nearly


Yep - that about nails it I think - My opinion of LME is it's a flavour ! - Yes we've been through all the other stuff on this thread, but my fake "Glenm...." is quite acceptable to me - but my still is a little better than straight pot - and I use fairly high abv washes.

That means this time of year I spend a lot of time " waiting ...."

Then I read of people fermenting out in 3 days - F*** knows how that happens - but I'd like to get a lot closer !
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby doktorno » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:25 pm

Hi Pikey,

We made it in two barrels with two different types of LME.
I think that we will try single and double distillation, so we can judge the results,
After distiling, and also after aging.

Fermentation is going slowly this year, i heard that from some other grape-vine makers.

I added some DAP and little bit of mixing-aeration, and liquid is bubbling again

Thank you friends!
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby doktorno » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 am

Pikey hello! Hope you are doing well!

I have some further questions:

- What is you method of diluting spirit to drinking ABV, after aging with oak? Single dilution or "in stages". Which kind of water is best for you? Distilled, demineralised or spring water from the store?

- Do You lose some of the taste and color after diluting, and do you correct it bu re-turning the oak?

- Do you filter your whisky through some paper before bottling. What is your drinking ABV and do you have cloud (haze) problem when water or ice is added?

Many thanks.

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Re: Malt Extract

Postby kiwi Bruce » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:08 pm

doktorno wrote:Pikey hello! Hope you are doing well!

I have some further questions:

- What is you method of diluting spirit to drinking ABV, after aging with oak? Single dilution or "in stages". Which kind of water is best for you? Distilled, demineralised or spring water from the store?

If you run your still way past any tails that are left and your getting almost totally distilled water...this last distillate is sweet ( it's called sweet water) and can be saved to use as part, or all, of the cut liquid used to dilute the spirit...even if it's been on oak and you dilute it, it can go back on the wood, if you think it's not to your liking. You can dilute in stages if you want...I don't, but I have a pretty good idea where I'm going when I dilute.

- Do You lose some of the taste and color after diluting, and do you correct it bu re-turning the oak?

Yes and Yes...I tend to over oak as the "character" seems to weaken over time...the over oaked spirit seems to come about right after diluting

- Do you filter your whisky through some paper before bottling. What is your drinking ABV and do you have cloud (haze) problem when water or ice is added?

No and No...if there is any charcoal in the bottle it's from the charred oak I age with and it's a very small amount. I bottle at 80 proof.. 40% ABV... (tradition,I guess) never had a hazing problem in a spirit where I didn't want it.

Many thanks.DrNo

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Re: Malt Extract

Postby doktorno » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:29 am

Thanks Kiwi,

4 days ago, we did distillation of LME fermented beer, according to Pikey's recipe. We used dark LME (I bought it by mistake). We did double distillation in copper alembic still. Taste of the "white dog" is nice, little bit honey taste, sweet, but also with the character of dark malt. Little bit of toasted sugar taste.

Fresh spirit taste is not even close to finall whisky taste. We put it on the oak sticks, 65ABV, one half on the chared oak and second half on the toasted oak. Just to see the difference in oaking.

Color is very nice after 3 days, but the taste is very far away from the single malt wiskeys. It taste very harsh now, like combination of grain alcohol and oak. It still taste sweet, but harsh, oaky and undefined.

Is it going to be better after 3-4 weeks? Or 3-4 month? I read some experiences - some people were disapointed with fresh disttilled whisky spirits, but after few months on the oak, they were delighted!

We have second batch of light LME beer just finishing fermentation. Maybe the results will be better. We have many experience in producing of fruit brandies, but we just don't know how to judge the taste and the potential quality of the "fresh distilled whisky" Do you call it White Dog?

Your comments are welcomed!

P.s. Our oak sticks are very good, made from very old wood, many years exposed to outside weather. Toasted and charred according to "homedistiller" instructions. Added 140 square cm/liter, it is near 20 square inches / liter.
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Re: Malt Extract

Postby zapata » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:37 am

I recently looked into the grains that makeup a typical dark malt extract, and they seem to be in similar ratios to what one would use in a whiskey. But the specialty grains are often thought to need more time to age out. So no one can say for sure, but you are probably looking at 6 months to a year or more for the dark malt.

The light malt will typically be better as a white dog, though the younger you want to drink it, the tighter the cuts should be. A single cut blend is rarely stellar both young and aged, tight cuts are a bit boring oaked and aged, while wide cuts are rough when young.

Knowing how a young whisky will age is just part of the art, there are few words that will help, and few tricks to speed up the learning curve.

You could try taking the oak from your dark malt and using it on the light malt for a round of microwave aging. It is the best shortuct to aging I've found yet and is best done with used oak. It isnt a perfect shortcut to aging by any means, but does get you a head start. I would toast/char a new batch of sticks to continue aging the dark malt on.

But to a certain extent, you might want to start with how long you are willing to age your whisky and make cuts accordingly. Once the cuts are made and blended, it is out of your control, it takes however long it takes.
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