Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by bentstick » Mon May 28, 2012 7:53 pm

Hell ya cook the hell out of corn,just finished a batch tonite, started at 3:00 pm and sparge is just finishing now, I soaked the grains (10 lbs cracked corn and 5 lbs barley)for 48 hrs in 5 gals backset before hand and it still takes awhile, when I start I boil 3 more gals of sparge and add to the batch and then bring up to 170f let set for 45 min then bring it up to 200f, dump in cooler add 2 gals of 150f of water, let set until it gets down to 152f, add 5.5 lbs of malted barley, let set for about 3-4 hrs drain in 2 6.5 gal buckets then sparge at 170f with water and fill buckets to 5 gallon mark, extra sparge goes in air tight container until next mash session. I usually end up with 2 5 gallon ferments at about 5/6 abv, I have had pretty good luck with AG so far! Havn't tasted any yet but this is last ferment for awhile next weekend is spirit run on four strip runs plus this last batch in the plated colunm!
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Stillbrewin » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:27 am

I am curious why as general rule it seems that people skip the beta glucanase 95-113 degrees, and protease/peptidase 113-131 degree rests when doing all grain mashes using corn. As general rule in brewing with a large amount af adjuncts you would lower the temp after gelatinazation to aprx 105 degrees with ice or cold water add your malted grains. Rest for a 1/2 hour for the gum break. Then add hot water to increase temp to 125 degees rest for 1/2 hour then add more hot water to get to your sach rest temp.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by texassquid » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:47 pm

:thumbup:
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Durace11 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:47 pm

Stillbrewin wrote:I am curious why as general rule it seems that people skip the beta glucanase 95-113 degrees, and protease/peptidase 113-131 degree rests when doing all grain mashes using corn. As general rule in brewing with a large amount af adjuncts you would lower the temp after gelatinazation to aprx 105 degrees with ice or cold water add your malted grains. Rest for a 1/2 hour for the gum break. Then add hot water to increase temp to 125 degees rest for 1/2 hour then add more hot water to get to your sach rest temp.
I don't think that's true at all, I see plenty of threads suggesting lower temp rests, especially when using rye. As a general rule AG beer mashing is not the same as AG wash mashing so a lot of things don't always add up between the two hobbies. Also, most of the corn mashing on this forum is dealing with cracked corn and as far as I know 99% of beer brewers use flaked maize for its ease of conversion. It's good advise, nonetheless, highly modified grains make it much easier to get to full or near full conversion with a beta and alpha rest only.
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Dnderhead » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:44 pm

corn/maze does not have the gluten so why whould you do the rest?
ones that need a stepped mash is wheat,,rye,,barley has some but as much and does not bother.there mite be others?

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Catagator » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:53 pm

Cooked 20 lbs cracked corn last night 180 f to 200 f . Went in came back today it sure did gel , had a layer of gel on top an inch thick, is this a good thing

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Weißer Hund » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:40 pm

Nice! I can use this information for all my brewing/mashing needs....
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by goinbroke2 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:24 am

Well, it too damn cold to do this in the garage so I checked the water in the house and it's at 140*. I notice barley and rye both will mash at 140 so I'm thinking I'm going to run tap water and maybe some boiled in the kettle to make sure it stays 140* +/-.

Making up two 30L pails in a minute.

I'll let you know how it goes. If it works it'll make me rethink my 57L keg propane fired kettle though.... :think:
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by goinbroke2 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:47 pm

Just an update;
I've made 5 or 6 batches since I posted this. Works awesome! About 10 gallons of 140* from the tap with the barley or rye and top up one boiling kettle full at a time. Keep the temp around 150* and use the mortat mixer in the drill to stir, TOO EASY! :thumbup:
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by greggn » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:53 pm

How should I interpret that chart given the following ...

I've been running sugar washes and have begun experimenting with AG. I've done a few all-malt wheat runs with some success and I'm going to try an all-wheat, non-malt, with SEBstar enzymes. My questions are:

What is the significance of the upper temperature limit on the chart (e.g. 150F for wheat) ?

If I'm gong to mash an all-wheat grain bill, with high temp enzymes, what's the impact of going to 180F which is the optimum temp for SEBstarHTL ?
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Jimbo » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:37 pm

Do unmalted wheat just like corn. Near boiling water and steep cook. Wheat's faster than corn about an hour vs 3. Use HT at hot and malt or other enzymes at 148-150
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Weißer Hund » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:05 pm

1.) The significance of the upper temp. limit is this is that from 145°F to 150°F is the saccharification temperature for malted wheat. If you go above it you start to denature the enzymes used to convert starch to sugar. For un-malted wheat, you will bring to a boil to make a porridge, essentially you are gelatinizing the starch, making it readily available to the malt enzymes during the Mash process. At this point you introduce Alpha-Amylase enzymes either as packaged enzymes or as malted grains. The lower temp. favors Beta-Amylase and the upper temp. favors Alpha- Amylase. Malted wheat has enough Diastatic power to convert a 60/40 ratio of malted wheat to un-malted wheat.

2.) As for the 180°F problem. It won't hurt the wheat porridge one bit. The concern is to the enzymes, which de-nature at temperatures above their optimum temp. If this enzymes works at 180°F, then it good to go.
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by The Butchers Apron » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:13 pm

How about just using a malted corn. You won't see too much gelatinization but you'll get good starch conversion. If you use a bunch of cracked corn from who knows where, you've got no idea whether it's been malted or not. The bottom line is your final gravity. If you use a good malted corn you'll save money on crap like amylase enzymes and sugar.


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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by ranger_ric » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:25 pm

Butcher
The general reason for using the enzymes is so you dont have to invest the time in malting your corn. Therefore you use cracked corn to make it easier to expose the starch and gelatinize. You can certainly malt your corn and bypass using the enzymes although I think most would still grind their malted corn to increase the yield.
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by 3d0g » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:48 pm

The Butchers Apron wrote:How about just using a malted corn. You won't see too much gelatinization but you'll get good starch conversion. If you use a bunch of cracked corn from who knows where, you've got no idea whether it's been malted or not. The bottom line is your final gravity. If you use a good malted corn you'll save money on crap like amylase enzymes and sugar.
And where are you finding malted corn for under 2 cents more per pound than standard yellow dent? Kinda the point of enzymes - they save money.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Weißer Hund » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:50 am

I haven't found malted corn anywhere, the brewers catalogs do not offer it as of yet. If you want malted corn, you'll have to malt it yourself. It's not a hard process. There are a few videos on malting your own barley, just swap out to corn. I don't know if it will save you money, unless you have access to free dent corn. You will burn up time. Think of it as a self reliance skill, a "just in case" sorta experiment.
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Weißer Hund » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:57 am

I got myself a birthday present last month, a new stainless steel thump/doubler barrel. I'm waiting for the weather to warm and a full weekend off to try a run with it. I can now convert from a reflux tower to a pot still using only a tri-clover clamp.
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by The Butchers Apron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:00 am

I malt my own corn that I attain from a local farm. I've tried using unmalted corn with the addition of enzymes and I didn't like the starch conversion. I like to do things in a more natural method. As far as price goes, 10 bucks for a sack of corn is pretty economical in my opinion.



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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Weißer Hund » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:42 am

Yah, that's cheap. I haven't malted my own corn as of yet, but I use corn grits mashed with 6 row barley at a 60/40 ratio of barley to corn. A typical American light beer recipe. Works great. I do need to get off my ass and build a rotary malter, so I can malt corn un-attended and at the quantity I need. Hell I can use it in my beer making to really lighten a beer up at a 50/50 ratio. I can then use the malted corn to help convert other starches I might want to brew/distill with. That would be another notch added to my brewing/distilling knowledge. What do you use to malt your corn?
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by The Butchers Apron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:17 am

I just soak the corn for about 12 hrs, discard the floaters. I then place the corn on trays a friend constructed and cover with moist cotton linens that i ordered. I stir them a bit every six to eight hours. Dry them once have a little less than half an inch of sprout. I believe five mm is the recommended length.

It's not really that much a pain in the arse in my opinion.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Weißer Hund » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:30 am

My problem is forgetting to stir them every 6 to 8 hours until the spouts are long enough. They end up going sour on me and get slimy. That's my lazy part of me that needs an automatic roller malter to do the turning for me.
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by The Butchers Apron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:48 am

Automation is always nice. I've gotten lazy a few times myself, especially while continuously sampling the hooch.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by MichiganCornhusker » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:09 am

I've been rinsing mine once or twice a day, but I'm going to try this next time, sounds like an easy way to go: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=55381
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by sltm1 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:47 am

I experimented with some UJSS this morning, and added 2 lbs of malted barley and 1/2 lb of malted rye. I only brought the last 2 grains up to 145 degrees and held them there for 1/2 hour. Did I actually do ANYTHING to alter the taste profile, or just waste some grain?
Recipe:
1 gal backset
6 gal water
6.5 lbs cracked corn
11 lbs sugar
2 lbs malted barley
1/2 lb of malted rye
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by The Butchers Apron » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:15 am

I'd say you'd get a different flavour profile with the addition of the malted rye and barley even in that small of an amount. I'd personally have gone 45-90 min. I'd love to hear how she turns out.



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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by OlFrimjob » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:38 am

This is an excellent tool, thank you.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by ravi » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:04 pm

Hello,

I am a beginner and have some queries regarding Gelatinization. sorry if i have silly queries)))
#Gelatinization is required to release starches from the grain, right?
# Grinding do not have any relation with Gelatinization ?like if we grinding corn too fine then it will be Gelatinization fast rather then whole corn at same temperature.
# how long we have to maintain Gelatinization Temperature ?

Thanks in advance
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by OtisT » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:06 pm

Hi Ravi,
My understanding is that Gelatinization will do two things: 1) long chain sugars (starches) will be broken down into shorter chain sugars that are one step closer to what your yeast need to feed on and 2) it softens the grains so that liquids can pass in/out of the grains so that the yeast can get to those sugars it wants to eat.

The finer the grind, the less time it takes for gelatinization to complete. I only use flaked corn so I can’t tell you how long it takes to gelatinize various grinds of corn. Using high temp enzymes can help with the success of these conversions.

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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by ravi » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:50 pm

OtisT wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:06 pm
Hi Ravi,
My understanding is that Gelatinization will do two things: 1) long chain sugars (starches) will be broken down into shorter chain sugars that are one step closer to what your yeast need to feed on and 2) it softens the grains so that liquids can pass in/out of the grains so that the yeast can get to those sugars it wants to eat.

The finer the grind, the less time it takes for gelatinization to complete. I only use flaked corn so I can’t tell you how long it takes to gelatinize various grinds of corn. Using high temp enzymes can help with the success of these conversions.

Otis
I got it!!thanks
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Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart

Post by Tennessee_Spirits » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:06 am

I found that the corn starch industry has plenty to contribute to this discussion of gelatinizing and mashing corn starch. After all, it is their business. But not all is applicable to making spiritus beverages.

See www.mdpi.com for a pdf that explains chemically what is occuring.
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