The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

I had originally posted this in another thread but WalkingWolf pm’d me and suggested that I put it in a new thread.

I have been experimenting for a while on a methodology for mashing corn, primarily focusing on reducing the labor involved but also on reducing the likelihood of scorching. I’ve tried a number of different approaches, garnering bit and pieces of information from other posts and finally came up with this method. To give credit where credit is due, it was one of Dnderhead’s posts that got me thinking of this particular approach.

No boil doesn’t mean no cooking. It is the application of heat for extended periods that accomplishes the gelatinization of the corn. It is still necessary to spend time stirring but the amount of time is significantly reduced. I have used this method with six mashes (7 lbs corn/2 lbs wheat/3 lbs malted red wheat) so far and with each mash I had an OG of 1.062 (potential abv of 7-8%), which is pretty good for an all grain mash.

Here's the procedure I've developed for a 12 lb grain bill with 6 gal of liquids (I'm using backset and sparge from a previous wash)

1. Pre-soak: Boil 1.5 gal backset and add to all grains except malt. Add enough cold water to reduce temps to 150-155F (about 4-5 cups) and add 1/2 teaspoon alpha. Stir well and seal the bucket. Let set for 2 days. I've done the pre-soak with both backset and plain water and there is a definite benefit to using the backset. I think the acid helps to break loose the starches and I know it also helps the enzymes in saccrification. The addition of alpha keeps the corn from becoming a solid mass but instead it's a thick, gooey porridge that can be easily removed from the bucket.

2. Bring 4 gal of sparge water to a boil and turn off heat. Add 2 teaspoons gypsum and a pinch of Epsom salt, these help the enzymes do their thing. Add the pre-soaked grains stirring well. Temps will drop to around 150F. Add 1 lb malted grain and stir well (I have used alpha here but the malted grains do a better job). Let rest for at least 30 minutes so malt can convert the available starches. This will keep the mash from getting real thick, it really helps in keeping it from sticking to the pot and virtually eliminates any problems with scorching and it makes stirring much, much easier. You can't include this lb of malt in the bill for ultimate conversion because most of the starch hasn't gelatinized yet, so it's sacrificial.

3. The key now to good gelatinization is time at elevated temps. I'll bring the mash up to 200F in two steps, first to 165-175, rest for 30-45 minutes and then to 200F with another rest of 30-45 minutes. Corn has a gelatinization range of 144-168 so boiling is really not necessary, but time at the higher temp is. During the rest stages I'll stir every 5-10 minutes or so to keep the corn suspended and off the bottom of the pot. My stove has a 2700 watt element and it generally take about 18-20 minutes to raise the temps at each step. The pot that you use can also make a big difference. When I first started distillation I was using a cheap SS pot and had a terrible time with the corn sticking and with scorching. I finally broke down and bought an 8 gal Megapot from Northern Brewer and it has made a significant difference. The SS is much thicker and the bottom is 3 layers and around 1/4 in thick. The mass distributes the heat much better. Another aid is to use a stirring spatula instead of a spoon. It allows scrapping the entire bottom to keep it clean while cooking.

4. Now I'll transfer my mash to a 6 1/2 gal bucket, add 3 cups cold water to make a total of 6 gal liquid. Gelatinization will continue as the mash cools and will thicken considerably. At 156-158F I'll add 1 tablespoon alpha to thin the mash, making it easier to stir in the malted grains. At 150F I add the malted grains and insulate to hold temps above 140F for a minimum of two hours. When temps drop below 130F I'll separate off the grain and cool to pitching temps.

It is a long process but it sure beats standing and stirring for an hour or more.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
WalkingWolf
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 1850
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: LA

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by WalkingWolf »

Thanks Big R for starting a separate thread for this info. I think for the majority of members that are active on HD an all-grain (AG) attempt is still something of a holy grail. I personally have never attempted it. I can tell you that I have read countless threads on AG and every post by dnderhead, rubber duck and NCHooch among others, I will glean for additional information. One day I will take that step. The info Big R posted is comprised of a significant time investment (as all AG posts represent) on his part and needed to be available through the search function so hence the new thread. You guys are laying the ground work for those of us that will choose this route in the future.

Now send me a bottle of this liquor so I can make sure it's up to HD standards. :wink:
Prairiepiss
retired
Posts: 16571
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 am
Location: Somewhere in the Ozarks

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Prairiepiss »

Nice writeup Big R. :thumbup:

How are you separating off the grains?
And I am assuming your bad ass pot has a nice flat bottom?
It'snotsocoldnow.

Advice For newbies by a newbie.
CM Still Mods
My Stuffs
Fu Man

Mr. Piss
That's Princess Piss to the haters.
Usge
retired
Posts: 3243
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:22 am

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Usge »

Thanks for taking the time on that Big R. Sounds like a very well thought out methodology.
NcHooch
retired
Posts: 1938
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:40 pm
Location: The Ol' North State

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by NcHooch »

Might give that a try BigR ...thanks (i'll hafta save a pale of backset first tho)
NChooch
PS: must smell up the stillin shed somethin fierce boilin a couple gallons of backset on a open pot.
NChooch
Practice safe distillin and keep your hobby under your hat.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Thanks for the replies guys.

PP - I just use the paint strainer bag and a bucket with a jillion holes in the bottom. Ya, flat bottom pot and it is bad ass.

NCHooch - Well, my daughter says I'm stinkin up the house, but it's my house and I think the smell is heavenly.

WW - Be glad to send a bottle for confirmation but it will definitely be to HD stds. You'll have to wait a years or two though. I'll be barreling it for a good while and then I like it to rest in glass for a good while as well.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
Bull Rider
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 809
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Bull Rider »

I've beaten my head against the All Grain wall, and I appreciate your time to document this process. I cut and pasted for future reference.


Bull.
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
Texas Jim
Swill Maker
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:52 am

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Texas Jim »

During the presoak, are you using an insulated bucket?

In total, how much time do you think the corn is spending above 145? Depending on the presoak, I'd say 4-5 hours? Is that correct?
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Texas Jim - No insulation; the goal of the pre-soak is to soften the corn and initiate gelatinization. I started pre-soaking a good while back, just experimenting, and found that it helped in two ways. 1) when introduced to boiling water it suspended much better and didn't collect at the bottom of the pot. 2) When adding dry corn to boiling water it had a bad tendency to clump together, drop to the bottom, and stick, pre-soaking prevented this.

The idea of using backset came from another member here, I am remiss that I cannot remember who, because he deserves credit. The use of backset lowers the ph which helps the enzymes by creating a more favorable environment. Some how it seems to also help in the gelatinization, I can't explain how, I am terrible at chemistry, but it seems the acids help make the starches more resceptive when heat is applied.

I haven't tried to hold the pre-soak at temps for saccrification simply because it is a primilary. With corn, gelatinization primarily is going to occur at temps above 150F. The only purpose for lowering pre-soak temps and adding the alpha is to prevent the corn from becoming a solid mass, believe me I have been there, ya need a hammer and chisel to break the stuff apart. Lowering the temps and adding the alpha is simply a means to reduce the amount of labor involved. That, has been my primary goal.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
jake_leg
Swill Maker
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by jake_leg »

Thanks BigR for this write up because I have been stumbling in the same direction without getting all the way there.

There aren't all that many differences between what you are doing and what I did with far less success, which makes it especially instructive. I did an acid soak, neutralized to pH 5, added alpha amylase, heated slowly to 180-190 F and held it there for a while, then left to cool to 150 F, added malt, rested overnight, cooled to pitching temperature, and added glucoamylase with the yeast if the iodine test was red. I think my mistake was not to heat it higher, to 200 F. I don't think all the starch made it into the solution at 180 F. I got good conversion (iodine test clear) but low yield.

I believe credit for the acid soak goes to Pintoshine - it's a variant on the lactic presouring technique he wrote about. I use micronized maize and the stuff just falls to bits in the acid. What grind are you using? Perhaps because I was using micronized corn I didn't need alpha in with the acid soak. I would have thought backset at about pH 4 would be too sour for it to do much good but it sounds like you have tried it both ways.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Jake_leg, I add alpha for the backset soak to keep it from becoming one big hard clump, it also helps it stir into the hot water much easier. It comes out a big sticky goo but it's easy to get outa the bucket.

I'm using cracked corn but I run it through my roller mill which breaks the pieces to about half the original size, I guess about 1/8th inch square.

My greatest benefit comes at the 175F rest, the mash gets pretty thick and starchy, but I noticed when bringing it up to 200F the grain pieces get soft enough that I can mash em flat with my thump and forefinger.

I've never measured the ph of my backset so I don't know where I'm at there. I keep saying I'm gonna get a meter but I just haven't gotten around to it. I need to get one though. I might add, I'm not particular about the backset, I mean it doesn't have to be from corn. I'm using some backset from an all wheat grain bill right now.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
Texas Jim
Swill Maker
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:52 am

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Texas Jim »

What flavors does using backset add to the whiskey?
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

I did a little experiment a few months ago where I made some single malt barley, one with backset and one w/o. It's still aging in barrels but I did compare the individual white dog. I can't say as there was significant difference in the flavor profiles. With the backset it was slightly heavier, a little fuller flavor, but really not a significant difference. I haven't done this with corn untill now and I wasn't really using the backset as a means to alter flavors but to aid in the mashing/fermenting process. I do have some different bourbons in my aging stock that I didn't use backset in and at some point will make a comparison though.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
jake_leg
Swill Maker
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by jake_leg »

Thanks BigR. I have been adding relatively small amounts of alpha on the heat up stage, because I don't seem to need very much to keep it liquid. I have tons of the stuff so I might be more generous with it next time.
effyeah
Novice
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:51 pm
Location: Australia. NSW.

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by effyeah »

i regularly when stilling have to buckets next to me with 5 kg of cracked corn in each, i finish my run and pour the hot backset straight into the buckets, really helps to soften the corn. except last time i left it for a week and it started fermenting on me. Great write up, corn can be a little stubborn at times.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by blind drunk »

Nice job Big R, must have missed it the first time ... I think. I've just about given up on The Corn, but now I may give it another go.
I do all my own stunts
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Thx guys!

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
NcHooch
retired
Posts: 1938
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:40 pm
Location: The Ol' North State

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by NcHooch »

Hey BigR,
figured I give a yell over the mountains and tell yall about the corn and barley mash I ran this week,
I took 8 pounds of cracked corn in a cooler and covered it with 2 gallons of boiling backset ....and let it set in the cooler for 24 hours.
the next day I started 2 more gallons of water heating and tossed that stiff corn mix in .
....brought it up to 130, rest for 30 mins (cutting the heat)
...brought it up tp 165, rest for 30 mins
brought it up to 200 ....added 1/2 pound malted 6-row. ...let it cool to 150
dumped back in the cooler added 2.5 pounds 6-row ...power-stirred every 15-20 mins.
let it mash n cool overnight...
the next moning, twas as sweet as creamed corn :thumbup:
transferred to the fermenter and topped up to 7 gallons total.
at 95 degrees, tossed a yeast bomb in from a batch of Rad's all-bran. Took off in 2 -3 hours.
Didn't measure SG, but I'll let ya know what I get when I run it.

cheers,
NChooch
Practice safe distillin and keep your hobby under your hat.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Hey Hooch - I think I hear ya hollerin. Sounds pretty good.

Looks like ya got somethin good goin there. I'm bettin your OG was around 1.070. I think the backset soak really helps with corn. Wish we had a chemist to explain what's goin on there.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Hey Rock - I agree with what you're sayin. I pretty much keep my backset to 25% or less but I think ya could probably stretch it to one third and still get good results.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
mbz250sl
Novice
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:02 pm

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by mbz250sl »

Big R - reading your post and have a few questions -- one my first couple of all grain attempts, it seems the corn absorbs all of the water - so does the presoaking help to resolve that - you then mention adding it into the 4 gallons of sparge water - heating and then later separating out the grain - when you do this, how much mash are you left with and are you sparging to add volume? my experience has been that without sparging I just have a couple of gallons - when you run it what are you getting for output in terms of volume and proof? told my wife that all I want for xmas is a few hours of hands on lessons from a master home distiller -- so much to learn, but the end results will sure be worth it! thanks in advance.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

mbz250sl-

When I initially started experimenting with mashing corn I initially just presoaked in water. It had two benefits; the corn didn't clump when added to boiling water and it suspended much better and didn't stick to the bottom so bad. I then read somewhere that soaking in an acidic solution would start to break down the starches making mashing easier. That's the principle reason for the backset pre-soak. So, it starts working on the starches and makes it easier to encorporate into the water, preventing it from sticking to the pot.

The sparge water is from a previoius mash. Using it helps boost the SG of the wort, thus increasing yield. I generally get an extra % point so instead of getting an ABV of 6-6.5%, I get 7-7.5%. I don't add any sparge water after I have completed my mash.

Corn, much more so than other grains absorbs more water. That's part of the point of my step mash. The initial addition of some malted grain or some alpha enzyme and the ensuing rest allows conversion of the initially available starches thus thinning the mash somewhat and making it easier to work. The mash still becomes very thick, especially when the temps pass 175F and after I've reached 200F and the mash is allowed to cool back to 155F for then addition of the malted grains.

With a grain bill of 11 lb grain and 5.5 gal liquid I generally end up with around 3-4 gal of wort after seperating off the grain. After clearing I'll generally have right around 3-3.5 gal. It take about a dozen mashes for me to end up with 2.5 gal at 65%, which is my goal since I have several 2.5 gal barrels for aging.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
mbz250sl
Novice
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:02 pm

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by mbz250sl »

Big R - Thanks -- looks like I need to start planting my own corn and grain to make this a little more economical - this isn't so bad when I'm pick up free over ripe fruit from the farmer's market or picking the neighbor's apples and pear trees - a dozen mashes is also a major time commitment - at this point I'm thinking I may head down the path of adding in some corn sugar to increase my yield - i'm working right now to save the 10 gallons of wort I have in which I cooked my malt - just back from the brew store with a fresh 3.5 lbs of two row and heating to 150 - guess it's time to play a bit - I'll add corn sugar to 5 gallons and keep the other 5 gallons all grain and see how it goes - picked up more corn and grains so when I run the still in a couple of weeks I'll save the backset and start a pre-soak batch to keep me busy - think these couple of batches will set me up to the point where I can put some aside to really age - right now, its hard to keep it around long when you just keep taking a taste here and there -- appreciate the knowledge!
Texas Jim
Swill Maker
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:52 am

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Texas Jim »

Big R -

Any idea what the pH of the backset was?

Also, is there any significance to the temperatures you decided to rest at?

I've been bringing about 7 gallons of water to a boil, adding 20 pounds of corn, stirring for 15-20 minutes until it's almost back to a boil, then turning it off, and wrapping in a blanket to retain heat. Using this method, I can keep the corn above 180 without having to reheat.

Seems like the results are the same - time spent at temp - but I was wondering if the process made a difference.

Thanks.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Texas Jim -

No, I have no idea what the pH of my backset is. I keep sayin I'm gonna get a pH meter but I never get around to actually doin it.

The initial rest is specifically for saccrification of the available starches so that the mash doesn't get so thick. In my experimentations I did some iodine tests and even at those lower temps there are available starches.

I have mashed corn just as you describe and I noticed when seperating off the wort from the grain there were still pieces of corn that were hard, that hadn't been completely gelatinized. By doing a rest at 170-175F and then bring the temps up to 200 I found I get a much more complete gelatinization of the corn, hense more starches are available for the final sacc rest when the temps are back down to 155F.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
WalkingWolf
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 1850
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: LA

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by WalkingWolf »

Big R, Do you get any "sour-mash" flavor from using the backset?

What would be the method(s) of mashing-fermenting-distilling an all-grain that would yield the sour-mash notes that come in around the 4th-5th generation of the UJSSM?
NcHooch
retired
Posts: 1938
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:40 pm
Location: The Ol' North State

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by NcHooch »

WalkingWolf wrote:Big R, Do you get any "sour-mash" flavor from using the backset?

?
WW
My last run using backset had a spicey taste (white)
It's on oak now, and I'm waiting for couple more months to taste
NChooch
Practice safe distillin and keep your hobby under your hat.
rtalbigr
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2200
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:25 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

WalkingWolf wrote:Big R, Do you get any "sour-mash" flavor from using the backset?

What would be the method(s) of mashing-fermenting-distilling an all-grain that would yield the sour-mash notes that come in around the 4th-5th generation of the UJSSM?
WW - I really don't know how to answer either question because all I have to compare it to is store bought junk from the past and I've never done a UJSSM. I've just never had any interest in doing sugar heads. I have done some SM bourbon using backset, and all I can say is that I never could drink store bought bourbons of any kind except JD and I love every bourbon I've ever made.

As far as doin an AG that possibly could mirror your 4th-5th gen UJSSM, I would think that subsequent backset use, that is backset from an AG that used backset, would get you there, you'd just have to keep an eye on the pH and not let it get too low. Another possibility is aged backset which is another experiment I'll be workin on. I've got about 20 gal that's about 2 mo. old right now. I'm thinkin about doin rye heavy bourbon (w/enough barley to get my DP up) usin the aged backset in a few months. I'm already lookin at the numbers for my grain bill and thinkin 51% corn with the balance malted rye and just a little malted barley or maybe red wheat. Should be an interesting drink.

Big R
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
WalkingWolf
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 1850
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: LA

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by WalkingWolf »

Thanks for the follow-up guys. I'm thinking maybe add a "lacto-soured" starter to an AG. Or, just letting some of the grain-bed from the AG keep aging and just adding the fermentable wash on top -- in much the same way an UJSSM is done. :idea: :?:
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by King Of Hearts »

rockchucker22 wrote:Backset adds sourness ans mouth feel, definitely adds demension , deeper flavor profile. But too much can over load the acid content hindering yeast. All in moderation!
Nice write up Big R. So how much backset would you add to a mash of 60% corn, 20 % wheat & 20% distillers malt for a 13 gal mash?
Post Reply