Question on understanding Mash Process

[StillsNMash]

I have been learning about working with grains, and am not quite sure I have a clear understanding. I have read a lot of material on the site, and have the concept that the process starts by soaking the grain and tumbling the grains over a period of days to get it to produce a shoot [start to grow] which produces the alpha amylase necessary to turn the starch in the grains to fermentable sugars. After the "growth" process the shoots are knocked off and removed at which time the remaining grain is cooked more to release the starches that the alpha amylase will consume to produce sugar for fermentation.

My question is what is the difference between using an alpha amylase additive after soaking and cooking the grains versus allowing the grains to sprout first?

I was interested in soaking cracked corn and rice together and then add the alpha amylase powder from an online brew supply depot to turn the starches into a mash, drain, and ferment from there. Am I completely past pluto on this one?

Thanks.

[Washashore]

Hmmm.... I think you might be confusing "mashing" with "malting"

"Malting" is the process you described in which grains are provided the conditions to sprout so as to trigger the production of enzymes. Each grain possesses varying levels of these enzymes. This is called "diastatic power". Malted barley is generally high in diastatic power (6 row more than 2 row)

Mashing is the process of "cooking" (under fairly strict temperature regimes) the malted grains with non-malted grains to allow the enzymes to convert the starches into fermentable sugars.

I've never mashed a non-malt by adding amylaze so I'm not sure how well it works. I have added a tad of amylaze in with my mashes, however, just to help with the conversion.

[Dnderhead]

you can,but a bit more to it than that,,basics----
crack grain,,,cook grain,,, add enzymes at right temperature and hold at that for some time.
malted grain does not git "cooked" as such but any raw grain does.

[StillsNMash]

You're absolutely right washashore - I am confused. that is why I am posting - to get my head bolted straight.

So the "diastatic power" = the strength of the amylase enzymes to convert starch to sugar hence the stronger the power, the more starch can be converted to sugars, right? The enzymes are in the cracked or [at this point] malted grains. At which time you add grains that have not gone through the "malting" process, raise the "mix" to a specific temperature that will allow the enzymes to convert the starches in the malted and unmalted grains into sugar; this would be called "mashing" the grains. When that process is complete one is left with the mash which is strained and prepped for the fermentation stage.

If I have a grasp on the process from beginning to end, then I may experiment with the alpha amylase powder just to see what happens.

The worst I can do is make a mess and lose some money.

Thank for your time.

[Washashore]

You got it. I would stick with known recipes before experimenting. There's a formula for figuring out how much malt you need in your grain bill (using the diastatic power of your malt) in order to have sufficient enzymes to convert starches. It'll save you frustration and money trying to learn the hard way.

I've never done NChooch's, but it ain't in the tried and true for nuttin'

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17750

Happy stillin bud.....personally, I love the mashing/fermenting process (plus, you can use the spent grains to flavor a sugar head---I've made some really nice whiskeys this way).

[StillsNMash]

Appreciate the support Washashore [and the entire forum] - going to work with NCHooch's recipe first.

[thegenerallee]

On this topic, when someone says they're doing an all grain mash (for example, with rye) is the malt still necessary? Does it take away from it being "all grain" or is the "all grain" title coming from not having to add sugar into the mash?

[rtalbigr]

In all grain mashing a malted grain is an essential part of the grain bill. W/o the malted grain there will be no saccrification, hence, nothing to ferment.

Big R

[thegenerallee]

@rtallbigr: Thanks for the info. So what ratio would you say comes into play with adding malt to a grain such as rye? How much malt needs to be added to feed "x" amount of rye grain?

[Dnderhead]

if you are using raw grain and a "base brewers malt" you need about 20% malt.(this can very)
if you are using "distillers malt" you can use 10%

[Prairiepiss]

On this topic, when someone says they're doing an all grain mash (for example, with rye) is the malt still necessary? Does it take away from it being "all grain" or is the "all grain" title coming from not having to add sugar into the mash?

All grain is just that. All grain. Malt is a grain. It's just a grain that has been malted.
So All Grain you are making the sugar from the grain. With the mashing process. Not adding sugar to it.

Adding sugar to it would be either a partial AG or a sugarhead.

[rtalbigr]

@rtallbigr: Thanks for the info. So what ratio would you say comes into play with adding malt to a grain such as rye? How much malt needs to be added to feed "x" amount of rye grain?

Malting grains make the grains produce diastic enzymes, primarily, alpha and beta. However, differences in grains results in different amounts, hence, the term disatic power which gives a numeric value to the malted grains ability to complete saccrification. You need a minimum of 30L of DP per pound of grain to get adequate saccrification. So for a 10 lb grain bill you need a minimum of 300L. The key then is knowing the DP/lb of your malted grain. Basically, 2-row barley, 160-180; 6-row barley, 180-200; distiller's barley malt, 200+; rye malt, 60-100; wheat malt, 160-200+.

Big R