How much malt and do i need to grind?

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Xnerd
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Fastill wrote:
Xnerd wrote:Rack it now?

Shouldnt it sit for a while?
Maybe your use of terminology is confused. I hope this helps....
Racking it is pulling off the liquid and leaving the grain behind in your cooking pot ... Fermenting OFF the grain.
Then sparging is what you do to the used grain bed after racking to get out the sugars that stayed behind after racking. Soak the leftover grain in enough 150-170 degree water to cover it for 10-15 minutes and drain this water into another container and use it to cook your next batch of new grain, or boil it down to decrease the water, resulting in higher sugar concentration and more potential ABV per volume. I usually pull close to 3% on my unboiled sparge water from beer brewing, but that is cooking 4 pounds of grain per gallon of water. You will most likely get less, but still don't want to waste it.
Instead of sparging, you can also do a sugarhead on the cooked grains, and keep it seperate from your allgrain runs. I do this alot.

no I understand that my confusion was that half the people I talk to say let the mash rest over night before racking into carboy(s)
the other half are on the mindset to just wait until its cool enough to pitch yeast into. This being my first time doing this completely old school I wasn't sure.

I did pull of 1065 which is higher then I thought it was going to be.


Again thanks to everyone for all of the experienced insight.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Fastill »

Mine are usually not cool enough to pitch yeast until morning... If you can, pitch it when cool enough, If you will be in bed when that happens, keep it covered and pitch in the morning. It'll work both ways.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

a bit of explanation while we wait.
by using a "no boil" we are not deactivating the enzymes, therefor they can keep working.
even wile its fermenting.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

So......

I learned a lot and made mistakes.
I ground up the grains too much and used to much.

I played hell getting 10 gallons back into carboys. I appreciated you wanting me to step through reusing it but I ended up taking the old gains and do a couple of UJSM which I will keep separate from the good grain stuff.

I did not expect the gain to soak up that much liquid! TONS of grain got into my fermenters and there was little that I could do about it.

I did wash the sugars into the UJSM and that is what took me so damn long.

But not I have 4 6 gallon washes perking away. Two will be for alcohol and two for quality (I hope)
Next time I will grind more coarse and less flour like., I will do 5 gallons at a time and make a sieve of some sort for catching fine particulate.

I will REALLY have to filter this when I go to cook it as there are shit tons of suspended fine particles in the washes.


I did learn that its possible to warm up the left overs and squeeze the sugars out!

Thanks again,

Im beat and going to bed.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

you still dont have it you keep jumping the gun,,ok do it your way.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Dnder, I am almost totally disabled due to a back injury,

My helper had to leave.

I was not trying to do it My way at all, I just could not physically keep going.

I was able to recover 10 gallons of of the all grain = Happy, it worked
I was not able to reuse or recooked, maximize the old grain bed = a shame, but unavoidable.
I was able to use a big chunk of the grain rather then tossing it out on a UJSM carboy = Bonus.

I wanted to reuse the grain but I physically couldnt keep going
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

I honestly hope that I did not offend anyone, I value all of your opinions and input.

Next time I am going to mash 5 gallons at a time. until I get it down good.
Dealing with that much of a huge mass of meal was very difficult for me.

Im going to build some sort of filter so that I will pull less crap over into my fermenters.
Although I must say the 10 gallons of all grain mash is fermenting at 3 times the rate of the UJSM even with yeast food.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

starting smaller is a good idea. I use nylon grain bags they sell at brewshops. The large size fits in a 5 gal bucket and filters out the chunks real good. They make one with elastic thats great because it fits tight around the top of the bucket and holds the bag up while your pouring stuff into it. here this one, best 2 bucks you ever spent. http://brewstock.enstore.com/item/elast ... ---20-x-22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Ill check that out for sure!

I think that I am going to make a mash tun to transfer all of the content of my kettle/pot and filter it that was too.
There is a nice stainless ball valve that I have but I am concerned about temperatures as my Mashing pot is double purpose as it is the pot for my still as well.
I suppose that I could get a conventional pot for mashing or another stainless keg perhaps.

All I know is that I do NOT want to go through what i did yesterday LOL! Racking mud is not fun at all.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Dnderhead wrote:2 row base malt has a DP of 140, ,,you need at least 30 per lb. so if using a total of10 lb of grain..
10x 30=300< 140=2.14 or 3 lbs will do it.

6 row is about 160DP. again take the 300 needed ,,300<160=1.875lb/2 lb would do this
as malt varies i can tell you the exact amount to use.you can always use more but not less.
this goes by DP and the amount of grain used.

Here is a question...

Do you include the barley weight in the equation?

Say I am using 20 lbs of cracked corn

20 * 30 = 600 / 120 = 5lbs.
But now total grain is 25lbs

Does this formula account for self conversion?
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

yes its the total grain bill.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

You need an 'average' of 30 dp for the lot. So if you want to use 20 lbs corn the equation is {20*0 + x(lbsmalt)*130}/(20+x)= 30 Solve for X=6lbs. Thats if you want to go for bare minimum. Most folks I think just check the dp of their ingrediants to make sure they're ok. Easier math. For example. You said you wanted to use 20 lbs corn and 5 lbs malt. The equation is [20(0)+5(130)]/25 The answer is 26 which is too low.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

Also, if youre going for bare minimum DP, make sure you hit your mash temp balls on, and stir a few times, and use a super insulated cooler or lots of blankets, and give it a few extra minutes.

Or you could just say hell with that, throw in a couple more pounds of malt, have a beer and relax.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Thanks and yes. On my last mash I was a little wild with the malt to say the least.
I used 25lbs total gran and 10 of that was Barley.

The 50lbs sack of malt barley that I have does not list the DP anywhere.
The shop owner did not know either.
thanks to insight from Dnder, I added a few extra lbs.

The mash gave me a gravity of 1065 while it was still very hot. I let is sit 4 more hours to cool before pitching.
So apv will be good enough. I have heard that temperature will change the reading a tiny bit but im not worried about it.
I am more interested in developing a skill at this point not tons of booze.

I have 30 lbs or so of corn malting now and I want to try an all corn mash too. I will do these almost side by side for comparing flavors.

I am building a mash run this weekend if I can find another keg or a nice big cooler.
I have contacted a bear distributor about 2 blocks from me to see if they can help.

Either way corn is going to be mashed this weekend as the sprouts are about an inch long.
Turns out what I was calling a root was actually a sprout all along. My girl friend laughed at me as she is an old farm girl her whole life.

I just have to figure a way to dry the malted corn out.
Does it have to be totally dried out to mash it?
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

"Does it have to be totally dried out to mash it?"
no its called "green malt" and a bit higher inDP.
some say it adds a "earthy" flavor.
its was used by many even in beer,until they had localized maltsters.
every brewery /distillery made there own malt.as this died out it was dried so it could be shipped.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Interesting,

It will be nice to actually grind this if its semi damp yet.
I use this giant food processor and if im not careful it turns into flour. FINE flour...
If i hit it fast with only say a lb at a time it turns it to like..... chicken feed size. Well at least chicken feed that I am used to buying out this way.
I will try this!!!

I should run the sprouts off if i can correct?
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

"I should run the sprouts off if i can correct?"
if you dry it yes,if not its going to be hard to do
iv used a food grinder for green malt.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Ok thats good...

Im going to take a good sample size to determine what percentage is sprouting now.

If its under 50% ill have to consider adding some other malt.

Here is another question. I can get Bin-Run wheat this time a year from my local feed store.
It is almost a year old which according to them wont make any noticeable difference its simply a regulation like an expiration date.
Has anyone had an experience with Bin-Run grain?
Its supper cheap. I think that I can get 50lbs for under 5 dollars.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

that all i use or used,and most do.it does vary so best git some and try it.
if in the right place,it goes something like this after the grain is grown.
its screened,the biggest fattest is used for malt,or seed,the next is used for flour
then the rest is used for feed.of course not all do this ,most just dump it all into a big been.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by newengland »

Okay. Hate to ask, but I have read the dp formula posts here for a long time, and I still do not know if the malt figure is added to the grain bill before the malt is figured or if you figure what you might put in for malt and then adjust after doing the formula. For instance, I want to do 6 lbs corn; 2 lbs rye; 2 lbs malted barley (2 row).
10x30=300/140=2.14 which would call for three pounds of malted barley
which changes my recipe
or do I calculate without the malt?
8x30=240/140=1.71 which would call for the two pounds of malted barley I originally wanted

I truly have looked around for a simple explanation. I hope I haven't missed it.

thanks
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

thanks dnder

And Yes all the grain including malt grain in the formula.
I just learned this myself.

It makes sense too because you have to figure in that this malt is going to be converting its own starches too.

so when in doubt use a little more is the feeling that I am getting from people.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

newengland, Did you see my post a few down in this thread?
jimdo64 wrote:You need an 'average' of 30 dp for the lot. So if you want to use 20 lbs corn the equation is {20*0 + x(lbsmalt)*130}/(20+x)= 30 Solve for X=6lbs. Thats if you want to go for bare minimum. Most folks I think just check the dp of their ingrediants to make sure they're ok. Easier math. For example. You said you wanted to use 20 lbs corn and 5 lbs malt. The equation is [20(0)+5(130)]/25 The answer is 26 which is too low.
In your case you want to use 6 lbs corn and 2 lbs unmalted rye (or are you using malted rye???)
assuming unmalted rye, and a DP of your malt of 140....
{8*0 + x(lbsmalt)*140} / (8+x) = 30 Solve for X=2.18lbs

or... how it looks like you started doing it, do a simple check on your intended ingredients (2 lbs barley)
[8(0) + 2(140)]/10 = avg DP of 28. Too low.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by newengland »

jimdo64. Yes, I read yours and the others in this thread. I just wanted to make sure I really understood. I appreciate the help.
Yeh, and I could try malted Rye. Then I could have my 6/2/2 ratio and have sufficient malt. Good idea you gave me there. Thanks
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

.. or you could use 6 row. Typical DP is 160.

[8(0) + 2(160)]/(8+2) = avg DP of 32. :-D
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

corn.jpg
Ok now...

This morning I have been researching grain milling and crush size.
I have read article after article that goes into how the crush size does indeed make a difference but nothing gave me either a visual or even a fair explanation as to what to achieve.
Apparently with malted grains the finer that they are crushed them more efficient that they are in converting starch but as a trade off, your wash is more susceptible to nasty flavors.

(((Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any points here as I am reading information that is written primarily for beer production.)))

Ok, so users here have said that they too have successfully used food processors to accomplish this task without issue.
What i still do not know is how fine... Im sure it varies per type of grain so I will be more direct.

Corn and Barley ...

So far I had a successful mashing with corn and barley that was just about cornmeal in characteristic. it was however a pain in the ass to deal with not having a separate mash tun
I figured a work around and completed it without too much trouble in the end. (I learned and know better now)

So would it be a viable method to decrease the fineness of the crush to something closer to cracked corn (see image) than flour?
I am getting ready for another mash and dont want to jump the gun and make any assumptions.

Thanks again
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Dnderhead »

the finer you grind the grain the easier it is to cook and convert ,but this can make it harder to sparg (separate)
so its your choice.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

Nerd, read some of Odins posts on here before you decide if you want to sparge or ferment on the grain. Some of our concoctions are just plain too sticky to even attempt sparging without pounds of ricehulls (I have, with little luck) but even the all malt whiskeys I now prefer to ferment on the grain for more flavor in the finished hooch. The only thing I sparge anymore is beer. Its all to personal preference tho, I happen to like a gob full of flavor and some bite, I ferment in a simple potstill with a 1 1/2" riser, and make pretty wide cuts, then let the oak smooth the character. But thats me. Cheers.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

Thanks dnder.

Seeing as how I have limited means to keep everything at temperature for a long period of time I will stick with the fine grind.
Im getting a pretty intense 150qt cooler this weekend to make a mash tun so I will try coarser longer rests later on.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Xnerd »

My biggest concern is that even when I make the mash tun this weekend that it will not catch hardly any of the flour that comes with a fine grind.

although a normal kitchen screen style strainer does seem to catch most of it.
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Re: How much malt and do i need to grind?

Post by Jimbo »

You cant sparge flour. Period. And its not that it wont catch it, it will catch all of it and clog your sparge. Why youre hell bent on sparging corn mash after 6 pages of help otherwise is mind boggling.

I wish you the best.
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