How much malt and do i need to grind?

[Xnerd]

Thanks boom.

I actually was looking at KitchenAid attachments. Sort of expensive but they seem well built.
I have been looking for a used mill on Ebay and Craig's list. Forget Ebay anymore people sell shit for what it costs new these days.

Craig's list is just so hit and miss.

Grind size is my biggest issue now. I seem to get everything so fine that no sieve will hold it back.
I have been resorting to the grain bed to a giant rubbermade tub and tilting it. It takes hours to juice out.
So I am adjusting 2 extra gallons into my recipe to compensate then the spent grain bed that is still very sugary goes into Batches if UJSM.
This salves two problems for me. One being that everyone always wants some of my shine and I am not about to give away my AG!!!!
It seems to add a LOT of flavor to UJSM. I have learned to keep the hydrometer reading a bit lower on sugar and thin washes. It makes them a heap better.

I think that is one problem a whole lot of people suffer from in the beginning. They want too much too fast and it all ends up being nasty when you pump up too much sugar and rush the ferment.

I am going to try the rolling pin idea this afternoon.
Thanks for the input

[talon]

Thanks man I think that I got it more or less.

I got an old family recipe that says

10 gallons of water
17 lbs of rough ground corn (not flour)
5 lbs barley on the root.
cook light and let set open one day.
let rest 10 days.

So that makes some sense to your formula

What I dont have any idea of is how to grind this malted barley.
Some things that I have read indicated just cracked.
As I do not own a mill and only need 5 lbs should I just rolling pin it?
Or should I toss it in a food processor?

I have a small coffee grinder and could turn it into dust a half cup at a time if that is best???

Thank you very VERY much for your help.

I have made real real bad whiskey.... I am now trying to take the next step

Coffee grinder or food processor will probably make the malt to fine. You really want cracked pieces, like three or four pieces per kernel, not powder. You can use a plate grain mill used for making flower on a really loose setting, but will still make some powder. The ideal mill is a roller mill, I have a Valley roller mill, not expensive, I've had mine for 10 years, don't think they still make them, but I'm sure there are others like it.

[Dnderhead]

place it in a heavy plastic bag inside a cloth ,then between two boards, then run over it.

[BoomTown]

a snip from a web search about Roller mills for home use:

Commercially Available Mills
Valley Brewing Equipment
1310 Surrey Ave.,
Ottawa, ON. Canada.
K1V 6S9
Tel: (613) 733-5241
Fax: (613) 731-6476
This local (same province) mill is relatively new and I have received favourable reviews (2 total) against other mills. Adjustable, 2 roller design with good throughput and crush. $145 Can ($99 US) +shipping.

Jack Schmidling Enterprises
18016 Church Rd
Marengo Illinois 60152
Ph# 815-923-0031
fAX# 815-923-0032
Adjustable or fixed rollers, good throughput/grind. Concerns about the unequal adjustment of the rollers. The most expensive but viewed very favourably by most.

Glatt Manufacturing
P.O. Box 116
5 Port Way
Dayton, WA USA 99328
tel: 509-382-4356
Adjustable 2 roller mill. Considered a good mill. Concern about the plastic gears but not a serious problem. Most mills have a follower roller but this one drives both rollers.

Brewers Resource
409 Calle San Pablo #104
Camarillo, CA 93012
Ph# 1-800-827-3983
1-805-445-4100
A new 2 roller adjustable mill that I have not received independent comments on. Brewtek claims comparable/favourable results when compared to other rollers. $90 US+.

Listerman Manufacturing Company
1776 Mentor Ave.
Norwood, OH USA 45212
tel: 513-731-1130
Adjustable 1 roller/plate mill. Concern about the single roller have been voiced. $75-$80 US+ makes it the least expensive roller.

Corona Mill
Columbia, South America
A very common (not a roller) and inexpensive ($40-$50 Can) mill on the market. Quality and quantity of grind is a concern. I have actually seen one of these, believe it or not.

No connection blah, blah, blah. If I had bought one it probably would have been the valley roller mill. Cost, quality, US exchange, local product, etc etc. check them out yourself.
Other Roller mill designs:
Home roller mill makers have been known to happen. Some were nice enough to feed my thirst for knowledge, here in short are there designs.

Terence Tegner(tegbrew@iaccess.za)
Yep, this is the guy from Africa. Terence engineered a 2 roller mill that will handle 10kg/min. Obviously motor driven it has 2 unknurled 6" diam X 10" length rollers made of mild steel. It spins one roller at 350rpm while using a different sized pulley (driven by the back of the same round pulley belt) to give the second roller a slightly diferent speed. This rolls/turns the grain as it is being crushed.

Andrew Keegan (akeegan@averroes.helios.nd.edu)
Forwarded me 2 roller designs but omitted his own as "experimental". Either a great loss of ideas or a plot of some kind, I'm not sure which. They are(in short):

Chris "Barny" Barnhart's (clbarnha@lettterkenn-emh1.army.mil)
Made a roller with 2" diamond knurled rollers. He feels that around the 4"-8" mark a smooth or only roughened roller is necessary. This seems reasonable to me and of important design consideration.

Tom Clifton
Made a roller mill of hard maple that were 4" in diameter with axial grooves to provide grip. He also noted a give in his bearings when crushing and would consider simple brass bushings considering the infrequency and low rpm's of use.

Will Self(wself@viking.emcmt.edu)
Forwarded me a design for a non-centered roller mill. This design used 4" diam, 40 schedule PVC tubing held in place by furniture casters fastened to the frame. A simple hand crank and cog(screw head + hole) system was used to drive both rollers. Knurling was applied with a Knife and a quality grind was the end product.

Wellington County Brewery(Guelph, Ont. Can)
Obviously not a homebrewer(Micro) but the only other mill I have Knowledge of(and have actually seen). This agricultural mill is best described as 2 wagon wheels which run against each other. Good crush, Good beer the final product tells me this design works.

[Jimbo]

This is the one I bought and it works perfectly. Chewed through hundreds of pounds of grain. Its 2 roller, adjustable and I have a drill mounted on the shaft. They put it on sale once in a while. Paid 89 for mine.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Cereal-Kille ... ?AffId=160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Xnerd]

thats the brew shop that I go to Jimbo!

Well the one IN michigan

[Jimbo]

thats the brew shop that I go to Jimbo!

Well the one IN michigan

cool! I grew up in Detroit, east side. Not much of a neighborhood, that, anymore, unless shoppin for crack. Sad. Live across the big lake now.

[Xnerd]

Yeah I grew up in the inner city but now live in the middle of a corn field in mid Michigan

[BoomTown]

Yeah I grew up in the inner city but now live in the middle of a corn field in mid Michigan

Wow, Whiskey Maker's paradise, or what?

[Jimbo]

haha, you'd think huh, but them $11 bags of cracked corn are hard to beat at $0.22 a lb. Even if you could get a pile of corn dirt cheap off a local farmer, Just busting up that rock hard whole field corn alone is a ROYAL pain in the balls (dont ask me how I know).

[Xnerd]

Yeah big time. cracked corn is on sale 10 bucks today.

On a related topic:

I attempted to malt some corn that did not work well at all.
I got about 60% to sprout but it wouldnt convert shit.

I will try it again as soon as I can get my hands on some corn that I am SURE has not been kiln dried!

In the mean time, does anyone know of any sources for buying pre-malted corn? I cant find crap.

What I want to do is do an ALL corn mash!
I do LOVE the taste that barley imparts, and the aroma of the barley is great but I really really want to do an all corn mash!

Any thoughts?

[Xnerd]

Ok I just did another 10 gallon mash same grain bill.
I got terrible conversion for some reason.....

1.042 at about 105F degrees.
that is 20 points lower then I got last time. I am not happy with this right now.
I used backset at about 20% dont know if that could do anything...

Can I bump the sugar content using Dextrose? Or is that bad?
I hate to mess with something so low.

[Jimbo]

Dont add sugar, youre making a bourbon. 1.042 isint great but remember, ferment on the grain and it keeps converting. Prolly get 20 more points out of it. I get 1.048 in 12 gallons with that mash bill. Not much different, but then the yield from teh runs indicates a gravity much better after I fermented on the grain.

Take a breath xnerd, you did fine. Dont flail again Ferment that baby up on the grain and see what you get, you wont be disappointed.

[Xnerd]

Ok ill listen and do it.

Wish I could figure out why the hell things wen south.

[Jimbo]

It didnt go south, whats wrong with 1.042? Thats like a beer, which is generally what the whiskey producers do. i dont understand the crazy high gravities i see people reach for here on HD, seems greedy. There's all sorts of downsides to super high gravities. Ferment it up, Ill bet you get 1.060 equivalent in a nice clean ferment on the grain and run that beer. Life is good. If you use an ale yeast keep the temp low, high 60's, and let it go undisturbed until its done. Remember you promised to keep your mitts off it for a week

[BoomTown]

youre making a bourbon. 1.042 isnt great but remember, ferment on the grain and it keeps converting. Prolly get 20 more points out of it.

Jim, thank you for sharing that, I too have been concerned about the low yield indicators from the SG measurement.....did not realize that fermenting on the grains would suck more yield out of the grain conversion as the fermentation occurs.

Is that because the Beta Amylaze is still active at the lower temperatures right through until the alcohol content gets too high? Would that account for why a larger yield appears to result when sugar is added toe the supposedly spent grains after the mash is pulled off of the first generation?

[Xnerd]

I must have read the thermometer wrong
its still at 131 degrees. I checked with my digital again.

Do you think that I should just wrap it up and leave it over night? By over night I mean 4:00 AM when I get up.

[BoomTown]

were it me, I'd let it work till the temperature drops to room temperatuer....

[Jimbo]

Remember also, if you mashed in the 140's at beta-a temps, your FG will be much lower than a typical beer mash (150's) because you made fermentable sugars. So if you go to 1.002 lets say and get an equivalent 1.060 after fermenting on the grain thats 7.5% alc. Or 1 gallon at 75%, if you keep 50% of that after cuts and losses thats 4 1/2 fifths at 80 proof. Whats that $2 a fifth? Sounds pretty damn good to me for an AG true bourbon.

Boom, yes exactly. As far as observations when adding sugar, I have no idea. never do it. Sugar goes in my tea, not my hooches

Xnerd, sure let it convert till 4AM, then rapid cool it and pitch.

[Xnerd]

It didnt go south, whats wrong with 1.042? Thats like a beer, which is generally what the whiskey producers do. i dont understand the crazy high gravities i see people reach for here on HD, seems greedy. There's all sorts of downsides to super high gravities. Ferment it up, Ill bet you get 1.060 equivalent in a nice clean ferment on the grain and run that beer. Life is good. If you use an ale yeast keep the temp low, high 60's, and let it go undisturbed until its done. Remember you promised to keep your mitts off it for a week

Yeah I am good at keeping my hands off now that I have 8 carboys going at any given time

I guess when you follow sugar wash(s) you tend to get used to higher gravity's and panic when you see normal ones?
Im using the US-02 as you suggested.

It will be 3 weeks before I even look at these again once I pitch.

[Jimbo]

Im using the US-02 as you suggested.

It will be 3 weeks before I even look at these again once I pitch.

You mean US-05 right?

3 weeks??? You could have a bucket of putrid nasties. When this thing is done bubblin, a week give or take 2 days, ish. You want to run it now! DO NOT let it sit for 2 more weeks. The malt has high bacterial count, and doesnt get pasteurized at mash temps, it will go nuts and take over when the yeast is done, feeding on the yeast trub and other goodies in there. There's some good writeups on this in a couple books I read, some guidance on the web, and its also been my experience. Pretty disappointing when you pop the top and it smells like puke mixed with baby shit. When its done you want to run it, take any contrary advice to your own peril.

[Xnerd]

Im using the US-02 as you suggested.

It will be 3 weeks before I even look at these again once I pitch.

You mean US-05 right?

3 weeks??? You could have a bucket of putrid nasties. When this thing is done bubblin, a week give or take 2 days, ish. You want to run it now! DO NOT let it sit for 2 more weeks. The malt has high bacterial count, and doesnt get pasteurized at mash temps, it will go nuts and take over when the yeast is done, feeding on the yeast trub and other goodies in there. There's some good writeups on this in a couple books I read, some guidance on the web, and its also been my experience. Pretty disappointing when you pop the top and it smells like puke mixed with baby shit. When its done you want to run it, take any contrary advice to your own peril.

Figure of speech
I run them all when they clear

Can you picture me as impatient as I am NOT sitting on the edge of my seat with a bottle of propane on my lap?

LOL

[Jimbo]

Can you picture me as impatient as I am NOT sitting on the edge of my seat with a bottle of propane on my lap?

LOL

HAHAHA! Your not? Hell I am, Ive got my leibig in one hand (sounds personal) and lighter in the other to fire up the burner waiting for my sugardaddy panela rum to finish bubblin .

[Xnerd]

I keep finding random recipes that only call for a bout half the 2 row that I use.
Now that I know the formula for these calculations I don't have to worry about them, but I am interested in how these recipes even came to be?
I mean someone had to write down a recipe that they personally had used and to themselves thought... that was good.

I read a random site that used 1.5 lbs of 2 row for 9 lbs of grain.....

[Jimbo]

You need DP of 30. So if you use 2 row with a DP of 140, you can figure out how much corn to avg 30 DP. Or you can use less malt with 160DP 6 row, etc. or you can say screw all that and build a recipe that tastes good, even if the DP is 70, who cares. Just anything less than 30 and you could have conversion issues

[Xnerd]

yeah I have done the math on some of these other recipes and they dont add up at all.


I decided to over due the 2 row on my second and third mash and it was a happy accident.
It made the most delicious aromatic spirits that I have ever tasted from the first run!
I do however get a lot of reflux in my design and if I run it slow I get fairly high proof with little effort.

I always keep 2 carboys going with UJSM and now that I am using the backset and mixed grains from the mash in stead of simple cracked corn the UJSM is turning out 100 times more tasty as well.

And yes I keep them all labeled and separate! No way im going to mix these up!

[Xnerd]

Ok so, racked and pitched.

So I got up a 3:00 AM and checked the mash. It has gone up to about 1.052 over night (better) at least.

It occurred to that I only had 2, 6 gallon carboys free to whole 15 gallons worth of wort and grain.
So I racked off everything that I could evenly between the two carboys which left lots of empty space.
then I shoveled in as much of the grain bed as I could into each carboy. I would say I got about 2/3rds of the grain bed into the carboys.
I squeezed out as much juice from the grains a humanly possible with nylon grain bags (awesome things)

so hopefully I will get some more conversion despite not getting 100% of the gains in the carboys.

I aerated these washes using a giant funnel that I bought, pouring into a food grade bucket and back.
This is a real good way to get the grain bed back into the carboys! just fill the funnel with grain and wash it into the carboy, replete.
Carboys are very full so I put blowoff rigs on both of them.

Plans for this weekend:
Find 2 more full kegs and make a boiler/fermenter...
It would gave been SO MUCH easier to just lock a stainless lid down and pop an airlock on to it!
an insulated fermenter will be nice for all grains!
I am so making this happen.

all I need to do is figure a good way to seal the thing.

[Dnderhead]

" recipes that only call for a bout half the 2 row that I use."
If your looking at commercial recipes for mash .they are using
distillers malt witch has a DP of over 200.

[Xnerd]

" recipes that only call for a bout half the 2 row that I use."
If your looking at commercial recipes for mash .they are using
distillers malt witch has a DP of over 200.

Nah, these are just random people's recipes around then net.

I just watched a youtube video again that had 1.5 2 row to 10 lbs of corn.

I dont know how they would get any sugar at all out of that. I am just basing that in very limited experience.

I did see one guy mash with only half the water. He cooked the corn to almost a thick paste then mashed in the malt.
At the end he added the rest of the water. Claimed that less water helps the enzyme concentration to starch.

Anway, ill stick with what you guys are telling me, so far you have all been right on the mark.

[rad14701]

Nah, these are just random people's recipes around then net.

I just watched a youtube video again that had 1.5 2 row to 10 lbs of corn.

That could be part of the problem... I'm just tossing this out there for any novices who may stumble across this topic...

You have no guarantee that the person making the video or posting on some website has a real grasp of things at all... We've all seen totally inaccurate and even downright dangerous videos on YouTube and elsewhere... Stick with researching here on the HD site because at least there is a system of checks and balances here to help insure that the information provided is accurate and safe...