Rhum "nose", clostridium
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Rhum "nose", clostridium
I am trying to get that very unique special flavor of rhum that you can smell when you open the bottle.
Up to now I get a pretty decent molasses rhum by reusing the dunder to dilute the molasses before fermenting.
The "body" of the rhum is here i feel, it's a kind of licorice taste, plus another arsh taste on the sides of the thongue plus a good afterburn in the throat....
But the "nose", the smell, so specific to rhum is not there.
1) I read that the molecule responsible for that smell was ehtyl formate (aka ethyl methanoate). I order to get this molecule i bought formic acid and mixed it with 70 degrees rhum. All I got was an awfull smell of almond like solvent (with very feint smell of rhum). so maybe that's not the molecule we are looking for (or maybe 2 days is not long enough to esterize).
2) Moreover, this molecule boils at 54 C, so it should be collected with the other nasty heads, that's another problem to think about. But that doesnt mach the advice often given to discard everything below 78 degrees.
3) Aroyo's paper says this smell comes from clostridium something bacteria. But where can I get it ? Anyone has a "home made" solution to collect / preserve these bacterias ?
4) Dunder aging seems interesting, i distill once every 3 weeks, and the dunder is left on the rooftop. I noticed recently a pear/apple smell comming from the dunder. I think it comes from the tails left in the dunder that started to oxydise in aldehydes (tails becoming heads ????) probably because the dunder has been contaminated. Further oxidation would lead to carboxylic acids which is the precursor of....
Esterification (the chemical reaction that produces the ester, the kind of molecule that gives it's smell to the rhum) is a slow reaction, could dunder aging or wild fermentation be considered ?
I think just reusing dunder wont get us to the magic rhum smell, despite was is mentionned in many posts (and that's why many pple keep asking). We would need more specific advices regarding this ethyl formate (or whichever molecule responsible for the smell) and the clostridium thing.
Thanks a lot for your ideas !
As long as I dont get this smell I'll get no respect )
Up to now I get a pretty decent molasses rhum by reusing the dunder to dilute the molasses before fermenting.
The "body" of the rhum is here i feel, it's a kind of licorice taste, plus another arsh taste on the sides of the thongue plus a good afterburn in the throat....
But the "nose", the smell, so specific to rhum is not there.
1) I read that the molecule responsible for that smell was ehtyl formate (aka ethyl methanoate). I order to get this molecule i bought formic acid and mixed it with 70 degrees rhum. All I got was an awfull smell of almond like solvent (with very feint smell of rhum). so maybe that's not the molecule we are looking for (or maybe 2 days is not long enough to esterize).
2) Moreover, this molecule boils at 54 C, so it should be collected with the other nasty heads, that's another problem to think about. But that doesnt mach the advice often given to discard everything below 78 degrees.
3) Aroyo's paper says this smell comes from clostridium something bacteria. But where can I get it ? Anyone has a "home made" solution to collect / preserve these bacterias ?
4) Dunder aging seems interesting, i distill once every 3 weeks, and the dunder is left on the rooftop. I noticed recently a pear/apple smell comming from the dunder. I think it comes from the tails left in the dunder that started to oxydise in aldehydes (tails becoming heads ????) probably because the dunder has been contaminated. Further oxidation would lead to carboxylic acids which is the precursor of....
Esterification (the chemical reaction that produces the ester, the kind of molecule that gives it's smell to the rhum) is a slow reaction, could dunder aging or wild fermentation be considered ?
I think just reusing dunder wont get us to the magic rhum smell, despite was is mentionned in many posts (and that's why many pple keep asking). We would need more specific advices regarding this ethyl formate (or whichever molecule responsible for the smell) and the clostridium thing.
Thanks a lot for your ideas !
As long as I dont get this smell I'll get no respect )
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Mixing formic acid with your rum will make ethyl formate, but very slowly. But, you're right about it not being very 'smelly', and not what's responsible for the rhum 'nose'.
If you want to make some quick, and have a small still available, mix the formic acid with ethanol, a couple of drops of strong acid (HCl, usually, but maybe some toilet-bowl cleaner , like "The Works" would work if you can't get HCl or H2SO4...never tried it, though!!), reflux 20-30 min and distill.
Where can I find the Aroyo paper? This clostridium whatever sounds interesting.
If you want to make some quick, and have a small still available, mix the formic acid with ethanol, a couple of drops of strong acid (HCl, usually, but maybe some toilet-bowl cleaner , like "The Works" would work if you can't get HCl or H2SO4...never tried it, though!!), reflux 20-30 min and distill.
Where can I find the Aroyo paper? This clostridium whatever sounds interesting.
Purposeful motion, for one so insane...
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Could this be it?Where can I find the Aroyo paper?
http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it left.
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i also read that activated charcoal may catalyse esterification in the gas phase, anyone ever tried charcoal as a packing material in the column ?
I was hoping that the formic acid would make things acid enough
Anyways, I'd feel safer with a solid catalyser, the affordable chemicals always contain nasties (especially mine which come from China ). The formic acid bottle mentions less than 0.0003 % of lead it wonder if it's safe or not .....
I was hoping that the formic acid would make things acid enough
Anyways, I'd feel safer with a solid catalyser, the affordable chemicals always contain nasties (especially mine which come from China ). The formic acid bottle mentions less than 0.0003 % of lead it wonder if it's safe or not .....
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Nope. If you want it to go fast, a carboxylic acid won't do the trick--you need a strong mineral acid.manu de hanoi wrote:i also read that activated charcoal may catalyse esterification in the gas phase, anyone ever tried charcoal as a packing material in the column ?
I was hoping that the formic acid would make things acid enough
Anyways, I'd feel safer with a solid catalyser, the affordable chemicals always contain nasties (especially mine which come from China ). The formic acid bottle mentions less than 0.0003 % of lead it wonder if it's safe or not .....
I wouldn't worry about 0.0003% lead...you're gonna distill it anyway!!
Purposeful motion, for one so insane...
try letting your molassas and water wash (without any additives or chemicals) catch wild yeast and start fermenting on its own.
trying to mimic the traditional nose by playing mad scientist won't be half as effective as trying to replicate the traditional process that originally resulted in the traditional flavor.
Other things that might help:
Use a pot still or remove your packing if you have column still.
Ferment hot. Rum comes from places where sugar cane grows and ambient temps are not what most folks would consider optimal for fermentation. some of the flavors and smells produced by a hot ferment are hallmarks of rum.
Take stingy cuts, most traditional rum distillers were trying for volume and profit not sweetness and light... the worst of the off flavors were cleaned up as the stuff sloshed around in barrels in the 100f degree holds of ships on their way from the west indies to markets throughout the world.
Give yourself a break. Remember that holding yourself to a standard set out by a commercial distiller is really unfair... you might never be able to bring yourself to do things that poorly.
trying to mimic the traditional nose by playing mad scientist won't be half as effective as trying to replicate the traditional process that originally resulted in the traditional flavor.
Other things that might help:
Use a pot still or remove your packing if you have column still.
Ferment hot. Rum comes from places where sugar cane grows and ambient temps are not what most folks would consider optimal for fermentation. some of the flavors and smells produced by a hot ferment are hallmarks of rum.
Take stingy cuts, most traditional rum distillers were trying for volume and profit not sweetness and light... the worst of the off flavors were cleaned up as the stuff sloshed around in barrels in the 100f degree holds of ships on their way from the west indies to markets throughout the world.
Give yourself a break. Remember that holding yourself to a standard set out by a commercial distiller is really unfair... you might never be able to bring yourself to do things that poorly.
"a woman who drives you to drink is hard to find, most of them will make you drive yourself."
anon--
anon--
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Dang...well, I'll try again. See of I get "debugged".
Ethyl oxyhydrate is the name given to the mixture produced by oxidation and hydration of ethanol. It's not a single compound.
Making it is not for the faint of heart. You take 95% ethanol, about 10-15 parts, add 2-5 parts manganese dioxide, 8-12 parts pyroligneous acid (condensate from wood pyrolysis) and then, with agitation and keeping the temp below about 45 deg. C., 10-12 parts concentrated sulphuric acid. Then you distill, collecting the fraction between about 60 and 100 deg. C. Then you distill again, collecting a narrower fraction...I think between like 65 and 85 deg. C. (All this is from memory about 3 years old...don't take it as gospel).
In my opinion, it's a lot of nasty work for something that doesn't, in the end, do what you want...
Ethyl oxyhydrate is the name given to the mixture produced by oxidation and hydration of ethanol. It's not a single compound.
Making it is not for the faint of heart. You take 95% ethanol, about 10-15 parts, add 2-5 parts manganese dioxide, 8-12 parts pyroligneous acid (condensate from wood pyrolysis) and then, with agitation and keeping the temp below about 45 deg. C., 10-12 parts concentrated sulphuric acid. Then you distill, collecting the fraction between about 60 and 100 deg. C. Then you distill again, collecting a narrower fraction...I think between like 65 and 85 deg. C. (All this is from memory about 3 years old...don't take it as gospel).
In my opinion, it's a lot of nasty work for something that doesn't, in the end, do what you want...
Purposeful motion, for one so insane...