MAJOR PROBLEM????? (long question)

[partsbill]

Since March, I've been making simple moon. Recipe consists of:

25 lbs. cracked corn
25 lbs. sugar
1/2 gallon molassas
5 gal. backset
23 gal. tap water
3/4 oz. Fleishmans yeast.

Now I've made approx. 800 gallons of mash which in turn has made @ 120 gallons of 105 prrof moon. Most is now maturing in 3 barrels.

The last 4 batches have NOT produced the quality of alcohol I'm used to making.

My procedure is: Put 12.5 lbs of corn in 2 buckets and cover with boiling water and let set for @30 minutes. Rinse the starch out of the corn using @10 gallons of hot water until corn isn't sticky and most of the starch has been released from the corn. Use this hot starchy water to melt sugar then add to fermenter (along with @5 lbs of the corn); which btw is a 30 gallon trashcan double-lined with trashbags. Add molassa, backset and bring to @35c before adding yeast and filling to rim. Ferment at @35-40c for 4-5 days then run in a potstill. Now here is where the only real measurement I have is not working out. NORMALLY, when all things are going well, I toss forshots that run <89c; collect all thats run between 89-95c, collect 95c-97.5c for tails and save 1/3 of the rest for backset.

However, using this same formula for the last 6 batches now, I'm getting NOTHING <90c, NOTHING 89-95c, and some crappy tails before tossing the rest.

The only culprits I can think of are:
(1) The corn I'm now getting isn't quite up to snuff as the corn I ran all sumer. I assume the starch could be low and of poor quality depending on where its from.

(2) I use tap water. Always have. I guess more chlorine or some other chemical could be wreaking havoc on my mash. Haven't tried it with bottled mineral or spring water yet but think this is the most likely culprit.

(3) Too much/Not enough heat. Didn't have to put much extra heat on it during our hot dry summer. May be going on an extreme on either side ; but probably not.

(4) Weak yeast. Not knowledgeable enough to know. Has worked just fine in the past.

(5) Backset. With poor alcohol being produced the backset may hide the answer. I have tried it with out during the last 6 but didn't seem to affect it much.

Anyone got any ideas or the GREAT MAGICAL SOULTION???

Thanks much.

[Johnny Reb]

2 things come to my mind. PH and the yeast fermenting for 4 days.

The yeast could be getting old and you might need longer then 4 days.

You might be fermenting the 4 days and only getting a 5% alch where you might be needing to get around 12% for a good run.

Your PH might be extremely low and need to raise it.

Molassas always seems to take a couple days for me to get a good fermentation started and that could be the problem too.

Try a run without the molassas and check the PH and buy a new batch of yeast and see what happens

Johnny Reb

[cannon.co.tn]

Are you using a hydrometer to check the SG of your wash? If not, are you tasting the wash? If so, does it taste sweet or dry and alcoholic?

I'd also use more yeast than that. I put about 1.5 ounces in a 10 gallon wash. Just dump a quarter or half cup of yeast in, it's cheap. Get your yeast bulk, never buy it in the pouches. Mine keeps a year or more in the fridge.

[partsbill]

2 things come to my mind. PH and the yeast fermenting for 4 days.

The yeast could be getting old and you might need longer then 4 days.

You might be fermenting the 4 days and only getting a 5% alch where you might be needing to get around 12% for a good run.

Your PH might be extremely low and need to raise it.

Molassas always seems to take a couple days for me to get a good fermentation started and that could be the problem too.

Try a run without the molassas and check the PH and buy a new batch of yeast and see what happens

Johnny Reb

Thanks. I'll start another batch tomorrow without the molassas. I agree that its seems to be in the 5% range instead of the normal 12%. I've never checked the PH. How do I increase it ? And by how much? To what?. I'll also run it for more than the 5 days.

Thanks!!

[partsbill]

Are you using a hydrometer to check the SG of your wash? If not, are you tasting the wash? If so, does it taste sweet or dry and alcoholic?

I'd also use more yeast than that. I put about 1.5 ounces in a 10 gallon wash. Just dump a quarter or half cup of yeast in, it's cheap. Get your yeast bulk, never buy it in the pouches. Mine keeps a year or more in the fridge.

I'm not using a hydrometer. Usually go by smell and taste. It starts out rather sweet and starts to turn rather dry tasting but never alcoholic. It used to start to smell like a sweet beer but the last 6 batches don't smell that way anymore either. As far as the yeast goes, I've used more in some batches, none in others. This summer, I went through 5 batches and never added more than (1)1/4 package to the first batch; worked just fine. Maybe along with the batch tomorrow without the molassas, I'll add more sugar and much more yeast.

Thanks!!

[dunderhead]

25 lb sugar for 30gal.?
no enzymes ?

[partsbill]

25 lb sugar for 30gal.?
no enzymes ?

Yep

[DestructoMutt]

i would be suspicious of the molasses. what kind of molasses are you using? if you have been using feed molasses, have you been stirring it up before pouring off your 1/2 gallon? the solids settle in feed molasses and can cause problems.

you can raise the ph with calcium carbonate or other chemicals from your local homebrew/wine shop. they should also have ph test strips. if you get the ph up enough, the backset should be providing your wash with enough nutrients.

[dunderhead]

I would be too molasses varry between 1%--20%
sugar. add small amount of sugar-
see if start agan.

[cannon.co.tn]

Well. If your wash doesn't smell and taste right the results are probably going to be not so good. If you are using feed molasses you also need to make sure it doesn't contain any anti-microbial additives. I think they refer to it as un-sulfured vs. sulfured in the trade. It could be that your source changed their source or the type changes seasonally (though I'd think it would be sulfured during summer rather than winter but...)

[BW Redneck]

There are other additives to halt microbial action in molasses. Take propionic acid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propionic_acid

Boys here say that you can get rid of that by boiling the stuff with some salt after you've diluted it down to your ferment concentration.

[Dunderhead]

Basically you are making UJSM with molasses,
blackstrap "feed molases 2% sugar and funky stuf
I whould use about 40 lb sugar four 30 gal


I 'm just a'n old hillbilly

[Johnny Reb]

2 things come to my mind. PH and the yeast fermenting for 4 days.

The yeast could be getting old and you might need longer then 4 days.

You might be fermenting the 4 days and only getting a 5% alch where you might be needing to get around 12% for a good run.

Your PH might be extremely low and need to raise it.

Molassas always seems to take a couple days for me to get a good fermentation started and that could be the problem too.

Try a run without the molassas and check the PH and buy a new batch of yeast and see what happens

Johnny Reb

Thanks. I'll start another batch tomorrow without the molassas. I agree that its seems to be in the 5% range instead of the normal 12%. I've never checked the PH. How do I increase it ? And by how much? To what?. I'll also run it for more than the 5 days.

Thanks!!

You can test the Ph using test strips and can raise the Ph by using calcium carbonate or citric acid (can be bought from home brew suppliers)

I copied this from the home distiller site (Nutrients & Acidity) -- -- The pH of the brew should be adjusted to between 4.0 and 4.5 prior to fermentation, using citric or lactic acids. You can also use lemon juice rather than citric acid. (also has a nice calculator there too to use)

I use citric acid because I also use it in making home made drinking wines and have it on hand. I also have acid blend which has citric acid in it

I cannot conferm this but was told fleishmans yeast can get around 8% and I only ever used it 1 time on a Ancient Orange Meade Wine and never have used it on a still wash.

My best yeast experiences is with Lavlin EC-1118 can hit 18% abv and Distillers Yeast can hit 20% abv.

Lavlin EC-1118 is also used alot to restart a stuck fermentation

I have never personally tried a turbo yeast and heard too many bad things about them

I use Lavlin on my homemade drinking wines and shoot for a 14% and the Distillers yeast and shoot for 16% in my washs for the still.

I use a hydrometer to see what my initial SG is with a new wash but I have been told (unconfermed) that a hydrometer is not very good once you add backset to a wash.

I will have to try a SG the next time I add backset to my UJSM Corn.

Johnny Reb

[partsbill]

going back to my original statement about the quality of the corn, the guy at the local homebrew store suspected that. With the drought in some areas and floods in another, there's probably no telling where the corn was harvested from even though I have always bought form Nutrena;( naturewise cleaned cracked yellow corn(wc)) It could be low in starch content. With the parameters pretty much known about how much alcohol can be gotten from x amount of sugar; if I was running a small amount, I must have been getting a healthy amount from the corn. If the corn is down in starch, then my overall starch content is going to be way off as well. Holds up well on paper yet its hard to believe that the corn is THAT much different.

[mikeac]

If your not mashing does it really matter how much starch is in the mix??

[Tater]

How clean are you keeping fermenters?

[partsbill]

How clean are you keeping fermenters?

new liner every time

[partsbill]

If your not mashing does it really matter how much starch is in the mix??

In my opening statement:

"My procedure is: Put 12.5 lbs of corn in 2 buckets and cover with boiling water and let set for @30 minutes. Rinse the starch out of the corn using @10 gallons of hot water until corn isn't sticky and most of the starch has been released from the corn."

and then from tony's site:

" This step converts the remaining starches to sugars. Heat the grain (and malt or amalyse) to 62-63 °C for 45 min to 1 hour (stir occasionally), using 4.5L water per kg grain, then strain out the grains (use a kitchen sieve), keep the liquid (the wort/mash). Some methods involve bringing it to temperature, then holding it there for 2 hours in a big pot etc in the oven. When straining out the grains, rinse them several times with a small portion of the wort to fully wash them clean. Take care when heating the wort - it will easily boil over, quickly getting you banished from the kitchen. Watch it carefully, and enjoy the aroma."

Now while I'm not mashing at the specified temprature for the specific time, I am heating the grain, allowing it to sit and the straining the grain and keeping the wort to ferment; of course along with my sugar as well.

[pintoshine]

Mikeac you are spot on. The starch is just a waste of good grain. After all it is mostly sugar anyway. Wasteful it is. A lot of good grain not converted to sugar and a lot of sugar wash with rotten grain. I can't even imagine the bad smell.

[mikeac]

I hate to point this out especially as I have never done it, but I believe if you just boil the corn a bit all you are getting is corn flavored water and are not converting any starch to sugar(therefore should not affect your abv at all).

I don't think you are actually mashing and I don't think you are actually getting wort. This may just seem like getting definitions right but by misusing terms it confuses a lot of those lurking and makes it that much harder to get started.

I believe what you have is something similar to UJSM? kinda semi-mashing? Are you sanitizing/rinsing the garbage bag liners? I donno, but there may be a sanitizing agent built into them that may kill fungus?? A long shot but worth looking into?

[partsbill]

measured sg this morning and its at 1.053

As stated previously, I ran this same batch ith the same procedure for @8 months and the only thing that wa changed was the sugar and corn I bought, the yeast I bought, the bags for lining my fermenters(which btw I didn't wash), the molassas I use, and the water coming from my tap. Everything else is/was the same. I achieved satisfactory results for some time and then its just fallen out to $hIt. I'm perplexed to the point of halting the whole operation, washing and sanitising EVERYTHING and starting once again from scratch.

[Tater]

If your not mashing does it really matter how much starch is in the mix??

In my opening statement:

"My procedure is: Put 12.5 lbs of corn in 2 buckets and cover with boiling water and let set for @30 minutes. Rinse the starch out of the corn using @10 gallons of hot water until corn isn't sticky and most of the starch has been released from the corn."

and then from tony's site:

" This step converts the remaining starches to sugars. Heat the grain (and malt or amalyse) to 62-63 °C for 45 min to 1 hour (stir occasionally), using 4.5L water per kg grain, then strain out the grains (use a kitchen sieve), keep the liquid (the wort/mash). Some methods involve bringing it to temperature, then holding it there for 2 hours in a big pot etc in the oven. When straining out the grains, rinse them several times with a small portion of the wort to fully wash them clean. Take care when heating the wort - it will easily boil over, quickly getting you banished from the kitchen. Watch it carefully, and enjoy the aroma."

Now while I'm not mashing at the specified temprature for the specific time, I am heating the grain, allowing it to sit and the straining the grain and keeping the wort to ferment; of course along with my sugar as well.

But as you see on tonys sight theres malt or amalyse in the mix to convert the starch to sugar. You didn't list either one of these on your recipe.

[mikeac]

I would not trust bag to be sanitized or even clean. I think your trying to keep things faster and still clean by going disposable? It might make clean up easier, but I'd still sanitize those bags and rinse the crap out of them.

P.S. I'm not good enough to spot any other error in your method. I just wanted to clear up some terminology so no one picks it up at gets there head bit off later sorry

[partsbill]

I think I'll start all over again with a clean slate. I'm sure i could have cleaned better, plus the break just might do me good. Only bad thing is that this is the drinking time of year for me and my friends. Thanks for all the help. There is still much for me to learn and with all the possibilities of problems out there as noted by all you kind folk, I need to go back and read, read, read, from the start just as i did when i started.

Thanks once again for all the help!!

[partsbill]

Problem SOLVED!!. I'll admit that I'm not the best student but this time went back to school. I read, read, read. My ingredients haven't changed in 12 months yet the seasons have. Since it was getting chillier at night, I "ASSUMED" that I would need a little heat from my fermenting heaters to keep things all nice and toasty. I was also asleep in class the day they said that alcohol production created its own HEAT. Combine its own heat along with what I shoved at it, and we had a nice little fermenting vessal reaching 145F!!!!! I killed all those happy little yeast cells with to much heat.

This morning, after 3 days of fermenting, with the ambient temp @38F, my 3-30 gal fermenters are a balmy 82F. Just walking in my shop tells my nose that I'm back to making,what I call, "good stuff". Also a quick breath, nose down in the fermenter, sucking in all that co2, tells me that my happy little yeast cells are working their ass off.

I did adjust my mix somewhat though. 3 packets of ec-1118 along with 3 tbsp fleishmans yeast went into the 1st one which I then split 3 ways plus 30 lbs of sugar in the 1st then split and added 35 lbs to each. On a side note, sugar came down considerably in my area. 25lb bag at walmart is now $8.13. It was $10.59 10 days ago.

There ya go ladies and gentlemen. And the answer to the question is...


READ>>>>READ>>>>>READ!!!![/b]

[goose eye]

if you getin suger for 32cents a lb go back an get some more. itll keep.

[partsbill]

if you getin suger for 32cents a lb go back an get some more. itll keep.

I thought it seemed really cheap. Whats the going rate in your neck of the woods?

[rumbaba]

if you getin suger for 32cents a lb go back an get some more. itll keep.

I thought it seemed really cheap. Whats the going rate in your neck of the woods?

Nothing ceaper in Australia. Usually wait till it is on special for $2.50/3kg, which by my calculations works out to 37c a pound. Probably cheaper if I got through work (wanker chef) but that would raise questions. Not the "what are you doing with all that" type, but the "Can I have some...." type.
Dont even know what the original thread was now, as a result of "monitoring" my own product. I was only responding to the price of sugar in your neck of the woods, but after having a serious and studiuos review, I would be of the opinion of:"give it a whirl" and see what happens.

[Uncle Jesse]

As for your ultimate question of why you're not getting as good a product now as you were, I have no immediate answer. I do have some thoughts however.

I notice you use temperature in C to determine your cuts. Personally I float a hydrometer in an eprouvette and watch the column temperature so I can get a very close approximation of where the run is at any given time. Then I make my final judgements according to taste.

I'm not saying you can't do your cuts and runs by temperature alone but tasting is the real way to understand exactly what's going on as far as foreshots and tails.

Also if you are going to cook or boil your corn to disperse it then you really need to mash it in if you want that alcohol. Put 20% or less malted grain in with the dispersed corn and mash it in at 148F for an hour or so and all those starches will convert to sugars for you and push up your ABV. This will also change the flavor profile however.

I'd say check your mash with the iodine starch conversion test which is a very simple method but apparently another thread states that you can't buy iodine any more.