Un-malted wheat mash. Protein rest needed?

[Prospekt]

I had a heck of a time handling a 5 gallon mash due to the gumminess of the wheat proteins. I'm wondering if I could benefit from some kind of step infusion even though I'm not really equipped for it.

I use
6lb red winter wheat
1.4 lb cracked corn
I gelatinize these grains nicely (a piece of work on its own)

Then I add 3 lbs of 2-row barley when the temp hit's 155 F. I get a nice sweet conversion, but due to its viscosity I wouldn't trust a hydrometer or even an iodine test.

It fermented nicely and has almost finished. I'm worried about squeezing out the grains. I know this is going to be a "fun" evening. The thing is, I have a lot more wheat to cook up and I don't really want to have to go through this multiple times.

I know the protein rest uses beta glucans and proteases to break down some of the gummy proteins. Are these proteins endogenous to the un-malted grains? If I steep the unmalted grains at 133 (before they're gelatinized) would this help at all? Or would I need to gelatinize all the starch, then cool down to 133, protein rest (with malted barley), and then bring up to 155 with malt barley for the conversion?

Thanks for the advice. I have nothing against buying enzymes; and I may have to do that for this recipe..but I like the idea of sticking to endogenous enzymes and having a mash without the need for anything but the grains and yeast.

[rtalbigr]

Cook your corn in a couple gal. of h2o. Cool it down with the rest of your h2o and then add your wheat and 2-row. Wheat will gel sufficiently at beta temps so w/the 2-row ya won't have to contend with the "gumminess."

Big R

[Prospekt]

I was under the impression that the gumminess is gluten-like protein from the wheat and needs more than the diastatic enzymes to break them down. But you may be right, because once the barley enzymes came into effect, it wasn't too bad.

After spending the evening squeezing out the fermented mash and making a whole mess of it (as usual), Ive decided I need to build a rig with a false bottom. Can't deal with this gunk anymore. Time to cut open a keg...

[rtalbigr]

There are other enzymes in malted grains besides the diastatic enzymes, such as beta glucanase, peptidase, and protease, hense the advantage of step mashing. When I mash wheat I always do a glucan rest (99-113 F), a protien rest (113-131 F), along with the beta rest.

As far as squeezing the grains, I use a mop bucket thing. I can do a 5 gal mash in about 15 minutes.

Big R

[Prospekt]

Thanks rtalbigr.

I like the idea of using a mop squeezer. Genius!

I'm going to heed your advice. We'll see how she goes tomorrow morning

[Prospekt]

Well that worked out nicely!

Brought wheat and barley to 45 C (113F), rested for 30 mins.
Added (pre-gel'd, hot) cracked corn, and raised mash to 55C (131F). Rested for 30 mins.
(At the end of this rest, the mash looked like it was already converted with lots of sweet wort on the surface).
Brought up mash to 65.5 (150), rested for 90 minutes. For the future I might actually go up to 68 (155) and hold it there.

SG was 1.07, batches fermented to .999 with baker's yeast, and very quickly!

I managed to cook up 80L worth of this stuff this weekend. If anyone else is going to attempt a wheat mash, the stepped rest is the way to go. Malt enzymes are present throughout the process, keeping the mash nice and thin for stirring throughout.

[rtalbigr]

For the future I might actually go up to 68 (155) and hold it there.

Keep in mind beta denatures @ 152 F. I never go over 148-150 F.

Big R

[rager]

this might be a dumb question but all this talk about "Step mashing " and mashing wheat , (learning a lot , going to be applied to my first corn mash)

you are talking about unmalted wheat correct?

reason why I ask is because why would you go through all this with the unmalted wheat,?

If you can get malted wheat and do a JIMBO all malt recipe why wouldn't you. is malted wheat only available at brew shops and you guys are getting wheat by the sack?

rager

[jarheadshiner]

this might be a dumb question but all this talk about "Step mashing " and mashing wheat , (learning a lot , going to be applied to my first corn mash)

you are talking about unmalted wheat correct?
Yes
reason why I ask is because why would you go through all this with the unmalted wheat,?
Cost
If you can get malted wheat and do a JIMBO all malt recipe why wouldn't you. is malted wheat only available at brew shops and you guys are getting wheat by the sack?
Again cost. Yes it is only available at brew shops unless you malt your own which is not practical for everyone.
rager

[Prospekt]

this might be a dumb question but all this talk about "Step mashing " and mashing wheat , (learning a lot , going to be applied to my first corn mash)

you are talking about unmalted wheat correct?
Yes
reason why I ask is because why would you go through all this with the unmalted wheat,?
Cost
If you can get malted wheat and do a JIMBO all malt recipe why wouldn't you. is malted wheat only available at brew shops and you guys are getting wheat by the sack?
Again cost. Yes it is only available at brew shops unless you malt your own which is not practical for everyone.
rager

Yup. I was given 60 pounds of wheat from a friend who farms. Can't beat the price of free. If it were up to me, I'd be making all my product with corn and malt alone. But we'll see, I haven't gotten any end product from this wheat yet.

[Jimbo]

Rager, I use both malted and unmalted wheat. Malted makes a nice single malt, for about $50 a sack. Unmalted makes a nice addition to anything and is dirt cheap for about $12 a sack, as long you calc your DP right, or use enzymes.

[rager]

Rager, I use both malted and unmalted wheat. Malted makes a nice single malt, for about $50 a sack. Unmalted makes a nice addition to anything and is dirt cheap for about $12 a sack, as long you calc your DP right, or use enzymes.

learning something new everyday.


the guy at the brew shop said that malted wheat was around 50 bucks , so im glad he giving me as fair price

as always thanks jimbo for your input


rager

[Jimbo]

Unmalted wheat and barley are at the feed stores.

[rager]

Unmalted wheat and barley are at the feed stores.

so feed stores basically provide all the raw grains anyone would ever need for stillin. that's great.

[Jimbo]

they usually have a pretty good selection. wheat, barley and oats - whole and/or steam rolled. Cracked corn. Sweet feed (Wet COB). etc.

[casper the Irish]

Feed store don't have rye, and wheat is seasonal (around here, Britain /Ireland)

That protein rest needs a slow heat up. There are 3 steps, maybe 4 and without them the gummies stay around till the strip. I've been fermenting from Bx16° for a warm week and still those proteins stay, the Bx reads 10° and I don't think that's sugar because the fermentation has def stopped.


HYDRATION get the pH below 5.5, add salts and nutrient to provide Ca etc, do any rice or corn separately because their starch won't gel below enzyme temperatures.
GLUCAN. 37°/99°F All enzymes are now activated. Heat slow and stir it up. B-glucanase starts acting on carbohydrate gums in Rye, wheat, oats, barley. Wheat and barley don't get much starch released yet at these temps. Pre-cook 'em?
PROTEIN 44° /112°F peptidase acts on short proteins
ACID 45°phytase, peruvase acid rest
GELATINISATION 50°/123° wheat gelatinisation begins as starch dissolves
55°/113° proteinase acts on long proteins. Denatured above 58°/138°F
SACCHARIFICATION (starch to sugar) A& B-a amylase have been working since the malt got wet, now they are getting busy. If you are adding cooled corn now is a good time to add some to bring temperatures up to a max 63°/145°F. In the presence of Calcium ( you did add Gypsum and Epsom salts to start) B-amylase chops the short branches. If you go above 63°B- gets denatured and A-amylase gets going to break up long sugar chains. If you keep heating to mash out above 72° you are left with those short chain unfermentable sugars. Fine if you're going to drink it like that. Not good for stilling.

[casper the Irish]

Even with a slow heat up my first wheat mash retains a lot of gum right thru to the end of fermentation.
I note that gel temp for wheat is above the beta Glucan action. So next time I will be adding my wheat to hot water for gel rest, then cooling before adding malt for the Glucan rest (44°C to 37°C).
I do not think it will prove necessary to reheat for saccharification since I will ferment on grain, plenty of time for starch conversion as ferment progresses.

I may add some of the malt with the wheat to ensure an active protein rest during cooling

[speedfreaksteve]

1 hour rest at 125F seems to split the difference for me in allowing rye or whole wheat a sufficient rest.

[TDick]

this might be a dumb question but all this talk about "Step mashing " and mashing wheat , (learning a lot , going to be applied to my first corn mash)

you are talking about unmalted wheat correct?

reason why I ask is because why would you go through all this with the unmalted wheat,?

If you can get malted wheat and do a JIMBO all malt recipe why wouldn't you. is malted wheat only available at brew shops and you guys are getting wheat by the sack?

rager

I know this is an old thread but thought I'd give it a bump.
First of all, I'm a NEWB -
When I was a bigger newb first thing I did was go to local Coop and buy 50# cracked #2 corn and 50# wheat. Each was about $12.
Before I saw this video, somewhat followed directions on website. I put 5 lbs wheat in a pillow case, soaked it in 5 gals of rain water for 12 hours.
Let it drain 12 hours then repeated the process with new water.
Didn't have a roller but removed the wheat from the pillowcase & tried to shake up the bucket every couple of hours.
I was gonna dry it out in hot summer sun, but we had a tropical storm set in with a week of rain.
As a result of weather and ignorance, probably only about 35-40% actually "malted out".
BUT, watch this and it's an easy process to make malted wheat.
https://youtu.be/Vd1MWQFfLS0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

BB