What is the liquid under my fermenter lid?

[Nutmegmooner]

Not the 5 gallons of Rum wash I mixed up but the 1/4 cup or so that lands mostly on the floor every time I lift the lid. Now I don't lift the lids a lot, and I always assumed it was just H2O but does it have ethanol that I should attempt to recover? I suppose I could taste it, but I'm not sure that would tell me much. Curious minds want to know!

[DAD300]

Water condensing on the cold lid. There would not be enough ethanol to worry about.

[shadylane]

I've noticed liquid under my fermenter lids also. Just assumed it's water condensation, since it tastes like water.

[Bagasso]

I think we have all noticed that but why wouldn't it be super smooth etho?

Anything evaporating should have a fair amount of etho in it.

[InglisHill]

Condensation, not evaporisation.

[aceswired]

Yes, of course it's condensation. But what is condensing? Something that first evaporated.

[still_stirrin]

Yes, of course it's condensation. But what is condensing? Something that first evaporated.

Perhaps hydrated CO2?

You know, like steam on the window of your truck in the winter. You exhale air with moisture in it...it is not from boiling anything...just moisture. Then the cold glass pulls the heat out and....whammm...condensate.

Same way with the respiring yeast cells. They're breathing too, just that they "exhale" CO2. There is moisture in it, entrained from bubbling through the ferment and rising to the surface. Again, condensation on the surface/lid of the fermenter results in those water droplets.

Next time, wipe your finger on it and give it a lick. Ethyl alcohol? Naw, just water.
ss

[Bagasso]

You exhale air with moisture in it...it is not from boiling anything...just moisture.

Yeah but if you have ethanol in you a breathalyzer will detect it.

Well the liquid in the fermenter has ethanol in it.

Next time, wipe your finger on it and give it a lick. Ethyl alcohol? Naw, just water.

I'm willing to bet all of us have done that but the question is, how can it be just water?

[Odin]

Distilled spirits ...

Odin.

[still_stirrin]

...I'm willing to bet all of us have done that but the question is, how can it be just water?

I'd say it MOSTLY water. There may be a few molecules of alcohols and esters (maybe even a bit of acid) in it simply due to the vapor pressure of the space above the active ferment. But the significant component is water as the CO2 bubbles through the must.

The amount of ethyl alcohol would only be measureable on the molecular level. First off, the ferment is NOT boiling, as the working temperatures are nowhere near those necessary to evaporate the liquid...at least not if anywhere near atmospheric pressure. The vapors that come off the ferment are composed of the fluids that make up the ferment as well as the byproducts of the ferment itself....CO2.

If you'd like to read through some textbooks explaining this, then I can recommend a couple. But if you just want to argue about it, I don't want to waste my time.

If in doubt....taste a sample of the liquid. What does your taste buds tell you about the liquid (condensate)?
ss

p.s. - Odin, we're talking about the fermenter here...not the boiler lid.

[Odin]

CO2 released during fermentation takes around 0.5% alcohol with it. I know a Belgium distillery that rerun their CO2 to recover the alcohol ...

Odin.

[Bagasso]

If you'd like to read through some textbooks explaining this, then I can recommend a couple. But if you just want to argue about it, I don't want to waste my time.

Odin seems to have read a different set of textbooks.

I would prefer someone to test it instead of wasting everyone's time.

ETA: Anyone out there with an ethanol refactometer?

[rad14701]

I consider the accumulation of the remains of CO2 fizz along with condensation to be a good indicator that the wash is fermenting aggressively... If it drips or drizzles back into the wash, so much the better...

[NZChris]

The condensate under the lid of my dead 8.9% rum wash this morning was 14.5% ABV

[Bagasso]

The condensate under the lid of my dead 8.9% rum wash this morning was 14.5% ABV

Did you taste it?

[DAD300]

BOOM!!!!

[Odin]

Yeah. Gasses rising up, then condensing ... that's like distillation. Even when it is not boiling, there's evaporation. A slower process, but not chemically different in results.

Odin.

[NZChris]

The condensate under the lid of my dead 8.9% rum wash this morning was 14.5% ABV

Did you taste it?

Just a hint of the wash.

[pulsetech]

Its probably all the same stuff we take off in Fores and Early Heads

[thecroweater]

Exactomudo but it is mostly water so those saying its just like distillation bzzzt sorry that answer is incorrect

[Odin]

Off course, those bubbles that sit on the lid also evaporate ... but otherwise it is just what it is: one distillation. Actually, you could even put a heating belt around your fermenter, set it at 90F (so no boiling), put a small diameter upward pointing hoop of copper or SS tubing on it ... that then bends to form a downwards slope ... and you could start to collect. Not kidding you. Really. The longer/higher the tube, the more refined the product. Only problem is it comes over like 1 drip per minute.

... so, with that in mind ... what's really going on at the bottom of your lid? Well, with the abovementioned "distilling below boiling temperature" method in mind, the answer is simple: it is passive reflux that serves no goal. It falls back into the boiler. But that did actually take "One Distillation". It is not water. It is a distilled spirits. Even when CO2 is its carier, that don't matter. It evaporated ... and it condensed. At a higher proof.

Crow, yes, it is mostly water. So is low wines after a stripping run. And this condensate is even lower in ABV due to evaporation from the condensate as well as the relative lower amounts traveling up via (1) heat expersion; (2) CO2 gasses rizing and alcs lifting along. But it is distilled by any definition I know of!

Pretty cool, right?

Odin.

[Bagasso]

Pretty cool, right?

It is pretty cool. I don't understand the negative reaction to it. It's not like it's going to affect anyone negatively because the liquid on a fermenter lid has a little concentrated etho in it.

On the other hand, if one was to get creative with it one could, maybe, wrap a heater around the fermentor and take of fores and heads while you wait for the yeast to settle.

Maybe someone could figure out how to ferment and distill in the same container continuously.

[NZChris]

You could put an SS cone with a collection vessel under it in the fermenter instead of using a lid. But why would you bother? The concentration and the volume is pathetic. Stuck on a rock with nothing to drink but my own urine, I would do this, but not for making likker.

[Bagasso]

But why would you bother?

Why climb a mountain?

Because it's there.

[NZChris]

But why would you bother?

Why climb a mountain?

Because it's there.

This one isn't a mountain. It's not even a small sand hill.

[Odin]

I like the thinking and theorizing. Must say NZ has - in my eyes - a very good point: now that we know, the Q comes to mind if we should do anything with it. "Maybe we could" not necesairily means "Yes we should". From just an energy persepctive or a time consumption perspective or a control perspective ... I prefer to distill by boiling the ferment.

Why I like the theorizing that's going on? It gives us more and better understanding and allows us to think up new methods or builds for likker making. It's the spark that makes the engine go. Not all sparks make the engine go, though. And on the other hand NO engine moves when there is no spark.

Little spark I had just now? The all new fermenterstripper! Let's make a fermenter out of SS instead of plastics ... Let's ferment ... keep that heating belt on at 90F ... now let's find a way to lower the inside pressure ... so boiling takes place below 90F ... and we have a fermenter that can strip.

Odin.

PS: Nutmegmooner, thanks for bringing this up! It's the question asked that puts the mind into gear! I know I feel an itch now. A big one. I feel at least two provocative threads coming up. I thank you (and prolongued jetlag) for that sincerely! Now fasten your seatbelts and let's enjoy the ride!

[thecroweater]

look its not distillation as such and thats why you wont get the same result in flavour or ABV it is that simple. If you do not reach the boiling point of any volatile what you are getting is passive evaporation which is not exactly distillation IMHO. For one there is no full separation of any constituent of the solution, without the boiler point even closely approached of any volatile everything is evaporating at around the same rate hence why it tastes like pretty much water (it is slightly alcoholic water). without getting into semantics if you are not getting any separation of components coming off (ei distilled off) in order of volatility then you have not achieved anything generally excepted as distillation , do you consider a muddy puddle drying out as distillation

[Odin]

... do you consider a muddy puddle drying out as distillation

The drying out in itsself is the first step of distillation, Crow. For it to be actually distillation, that evaporation still needs to condense. In your example (a great one, by the way), it would have to rain. That's all distillation is: evaporation and then condensation. Preferably in a controlled manner, so we can manage both evaporation and condensation (that's why we have condensors, right?). But even if not ... in the natural world it would still be distillation. Go out on a rainy day and enjoy the results!

Now, the muddy puddle metaphore has two more advantages (so thanks for sharing), associated with distillation as we do it (controlled environment distillation, we might call it):
1. Does the mud come over in the rain? No. Just as our grains and yeast stay in the fermenter/boiler;
2. Does the puddle dry out faster when it is wider and shallower? Same amount of muddy water over a larger surface would create more evaporation, hence faster distillation.

So ... from wet fermenter lids to muddy pools ... to another question we need to address: if number 2 is the case (and it is), why the heck do so many of us use our boilers in the wrong position? Why is that keg under your column vertical? Okay, it deserves a new thread and I will start one right away. Don't want to muddle up this thread!

For a reference: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 88&t=57353

Regards, Odin.

[NZChris]

If you want to increase the quantity and quality of the condensate collected, increase the temperature difference and improve the collection system. This is what your common, garden variety, moonshine still already does. If you want to mess with efficiency, use heat pumps to shift energy around, or go solar.

[Odin]

If you want to increase the quantity and quality of the condensate collected, increase the temperature difference and improve the collection system. This is what your common, garden variety, moonshine still already does. If you want to mess with efficiency, use heat pumps to shift energy around, or go solar.

Amen to that!

Odin.