Rum conundrum

[rgreen2002]

OK... I'm hoping I can salvage this rum. I have been keeping up with cranky's recent rum post and felt it was time to run another rum batch myself. I have run pugirum in the past but it has been a year now since my last run. I dropped a line here earlier regarding the dunder being a year old and most folks seemed to think it should be fine. I did keep the leftover yeast in the ferment bucket and I kept the dunder in a separate bucket. It has a nice little infection on it which I thought would add some good flavors. Smelled like blackstrap with no "vomit" type odors so I thought it was OK.

My dunder bucket

The recipe I used for 2 separate 5 gallon batches:
I made the yeast bomb with:
-1/2 gallon H2O
-1 vit b tab
-2.5 tsp of DAP ( I didn't use fertilizer)
-two pinches of epsom salt
-1/8ish cup of bakers yeast
- brought to boil 15 minutes then strained into bucket

For the Wash:
- the yeast bomb - 1/2 gallon
-1 gallon feed molasses
-2 lb dark brown sugar
-1 gallon of dunder(strained solids out)
-1/2 gallon more H20
-Topped off with the ferment content that should have old yeast in it

I let it ride for an hour with no activity. I assumed after a year maybe the yeast in the ferment (kept in the bucket, indoors at a relatively constant temp) were no good and I added a half packet of EC 1118 to each of the two buckets.

I'm about 10 hours into this without one single bubble. I checked the pH today in both buckets it is 5.1 and 5.0. I added a yeast energizer to see if that would get me anything but that was 20 minutes ago and I see nothing.

Now the molasses I used is the feed molasses with propionic acid included. I combed many threads that suggested many different things. Some folks were saying it was fine if you boil it with water and take off the liquid while others were saying its fine the way it is. My recent post: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=58570 shows the brand and such. I was discussing it with still_stirrin who uses the exact same kind and gets fine results. I then experimented with it myself, adding some to H2O, DAP and vit b and got good results...

Yeast!

Short version, I did not boil this molasses, just added it right into the bucket.

One last note... the ferment bucket has what may have been either an infection as well or the yeast floating on the top of the old wash (which I didn't think would happen so I am inclined to think NO). The ferment also smelled of blackstrap with no hints of off smell (at least not horrible...I couldn't tell). I do not have a picture of it since i basically use it all up.

It seems I always have issues with rum which is a shame because I kinda would like some good rum. Does anyone have any ideas before this becomes actual deer food

[still_stirrin]

Temperature of the ferment?

Was the champagne yeast healthy? Did you properly rehydrate and aerate the wash?
ss

[rgreen2002]

Temperature of the ferment?

Was the champagne yeast healthy? Did you properly rehydrate and aerate the wash?
ss

SS - thanks for the help!

So the temp in the kitchen was around 70F. Maybe not enough for the explosion i was looking for but should be enough to see some activity. I took one barrel into the basement where it is now between 75 to 80F in the water bath... so we shall see what happens. The yeast was originally from the ferment bucket but I did put newer yeast in there. That yeast has been kept in the fridge since purchase and has an expiration date for later this year.
As far as rehydrate did you mean the yeast SS? - I did not... I did aerate the wash stirring and mixing throughout. If the heat does not produce activity I will draw a little wash into a cup and pitch some yeast in there first (I will assume all the yeast in the ferments is useless).

Maybe I should make a starter without the wash...hmmm

[Andy Capp]

You're over complicating the easiest wash to make.
Why use champagne yeast? It likes lower temps. Use bakers yeast for rum and ferment around 28C for a week or so for a fuller bodied rum or 35C for a hard and fast finish of around 36 hours for a lighter rum.
Unless you are experienced in dunder pits give them a rest. Your on a hiding to nothing trying to get them right. You don't need dunder to make a full bodied rum.
Ditch the sugar and go all molasses, you won't regret it. Cheers.

[rgreen2002]

You're over complicating the easiest wash to make.
Why use champagne yeast? It likes lower temps. Use bakers yeast for rum and ferment around 28C for a week or so for a fuller bodied rum or 35C for a hard and fast finish of around 36 hours for a lighter rum.
Unless you are experienced in dunder pits give them a rest. Your on a hiding to nothing trying to get them right. You don't need dunder to make a full bodied rum.
Ditch the sugar and go all molasses, you won't regret it. Cheers.

Thanks Andy... I'm always fascinated by how you guys seem to know whats going on in the house. You mention lower temps and today my 2 buckets - one in the water bath at about 75-80F doing nothing. The one on the table at 65F...bubbling. LOL

If i wanted to pitch bakers yeast now will it overrun the ec 1118 (I used it because I had it and because I read here that it would produce a nice flavor rum)? Will the two yeast cause off flavoring?

[Monkeyman88]

Not sure if it will over take it, or what it will do to the flavour. I say let this batch finish and start the next one with bakers.

My rum ferments using bakers yeast at 40°c. Hot and fast with lots of flavour even though I add sugar. 2kg of sugar to 1kg of molasses. SG at 1.080

My dunder pit is a 60L drum with the top cut off, left uncovered in my garage. So far has a few banana peels, some egg shells, a few dozen flies and about a million gnats. Also has a nice spongey layer of mould and gunk on the surface. Although it smells like a rum filled heaven. I use 40L in a 200L ferment. Then the dunder from the first strip run is added to the pit, and enough from the second strip run to top it off.
I also add some dunder from the pit to the spirit run.

[rgreen2002]

My dunder pit is a 60L drum with the top cut off, left uncovered in my garage. So far has a few banana peels, some egg shells, a few dozen flies and about a million gnats. Also has a nice spongey layer of mould and gunk on the surface.

That....sounds....wonderful. . And I thought I had issues with my little infections (in the dunder that is...). Thanks MM

I am always fascinated by these little suckers!!!

Saccharomyces

So the molasses has kicked off! I wonder if they needed to multiple enough to overpower the propionic acid or were they just a little lazy. Either way I'm closer to joining the rum club.

[Monkeyman88]

If you're lucky I might remember to take a pic of it later. Haha

[Monkeyman88]

I've used a bit so the level is quite low. But you can still see all the yummyness. Lol.

[Yummyrum]

You're over complicating the easiest wash to make.
Why use champagne yeast? It likes lower temps. Use bakers yeast for rum and ferment around 28C for a week or so for a fuller bodied rum or 35C for a hard and fast finish of around 36 hours for a lighter rum.
Unless you are experienced in dunder pits give them a rest. Your on a hiding to nothing trying to get them right. You don't need dunder to make a full bodied rum.
Ditch the sugar and go all molasses, you won't regret it. Cheers.

Yes yes yes and yes Andy

Fuck off the EC1118....its really slow to build up a colony....Bakers yeast is the go

Run it hot and fast ....yup ...36 hours it should be all over red rover .....give it a few more days to settle

All this moldy Dunder shit is ........shit ....a bit of fresh Dunder adds a bit but its not the be all and end all .I've dumped my 2 year old scank pit and gone back to fresh .

All molasses is the way to go ....dump the sugar .....name a commercial Rum distillery that adds sugar to their Molasses Rums


BTW rgreen , pleased it finally kicked off

[rgreen2002]

Yummyrum/Andy - I'm with you guys.... ec-1118 may be good for other spirits but rum isn't one of them. Yummyrum - what is your recipe for all molasses runs?

[Yummyrum]

Yummyrum - what is your recipe for all molasses runs?

rgreen2002
its a work in progress but my last few were like this .....It makes 100 liters which I split into 2 50 liter washes

20 liters Feedstock Molasses
10 liters Dunder
70 liters water
heaped teaspoon of Epsom salts
teaspoon of DAP ( but I doubt it makes any real difference )
a cup of Bread yeast sprinkled on top

I generally heat the dunder and about 20 liters of water in a Big old pot and add the molasses while stirring , bring the lot up to about 80 degC ( to steralize the Dunder and Molasses .......not saying you need to ....its just me )
Then I split the hot stuff into my fermenters ......I have two 60 liter each .
I can then still lift them up to the fermenting shelf before I top them up to 50 liters each with cold water , add the Epsom salts and DAP , aerate with a paint stirrer in a drill , then add the yeast .( its usually at around 35 - 40 degC at pitching )

Start SG is usually around 1.100 and finishes dry at 1.050

There is no violent foam up , just a nice crousin then that gives way to the familiar fizzing coke .......its all over in around 36-48 hours

I used to add around 1/5 Dunder but I have backed off to 1/10 ........just seem to get a cleaner Rum which is already tasty enough due to the all molasses . ( we are fortunate that we live in a sugar growing region so Molasses is as cheap as sugar)

These are some of my old Dunder Buckets , When I found the disgusting scoby growing in one I decided enough of this shit .....incidentally this is why I sterilize my washes

[rgreen2002]

Hello everyone.... so I have a part 2 to the rum conundrum...
Made pugirum using the aforementioned feed grade molasses. My recipe

the yeast bomb substituting DAP for fertilizer,

1 gallon molasses
2 lb dark brown sugar
the yeast bomb
2 gallons H2O
about 1.5 gallons dunder
yeast - since the backset was a year old didn't look like it was kicking in so I added yeast
Backset to top off

SG - unknown since I broke my damn hydrometer and the molasses is too dark for refractometry
temp - consistent 80F in the water bath/aquarium heaters setup

It was a slow start then ran strong for about 5-6 days
It's at a dead stop
FG - 1.060 - this seems high even for molasses
pH 5.2

I stirred it and added a pinch Epsom salt, a little more DAP thinking it had run out of nitrogen. Got a little bubble at first then let sit overnight. This morning maybe 1 bubble every 30 seconds.

Is this done? The 1.060 seems high and I know the lack of SG is hurting me a little but out of my control.

[frunobulax]

Does the Molasses contain Propionic acid as a preservative? It can stop fermentation, as it's supposed to. I have never had problems with it, but I believe others have.

[rgreen2002]

Does the Molasses contain Propionic acid as a preservative? It can stop fermentation, as it's supposed to. I have never had problems with it, but I believe others have.

frunobulax - it does contain propionic acid (PA) but the the wash has fermented up until now. It just seems stalled and I'm not 100% sure why. Temp - OK , pH - OK, Nutrients - re-supplimented (suspect OK). Could the PA be causing issues after 5 days of good ferment - I can't say it isn't, but I have my doubts.

[midwest shinner]

Just a couple quick notes on rum that will hopefully help ya at some point.
-Molasses or rum washes love bakers yeast, that's the only wash or mash I use this yeast in, because bakers yeast is cultivated in a molasses or cane sugar substrate, so that is its prime environment.
-a proper(or happy) rum wash will create more heat, IMHO, than any other wash or mash, so if you're fermenting larger batches(25+ gals) especially in the heat of summer or places with warmer weather, figure on finding some way of cooling your mash barrel to keep the yeast happy if it starts getting too warm. But keep in mind rum ferments generally are OK at slightly warmer temps, in my experience, than grain or fruit ferments.
-sometimes some funk(keep dunder in mind...) is OK in a wash be it rum or sour mash whisky.But with brewing in general, the more sanitary the better.
I wish you the best of luck in all your futher brewing/distilling adventures

[rgreen2002]

Thanks midwest...

I have been reviewing the forums over the last 72 hours and wasn't finding much more than : temps, pH, nutrients, non-fermentables and I was getting edgy. So out of desperation or impatience...hard to tell the two apart sometimes... I thought maybe the majority of sugars in that damn molasses were non-fermentables. I decided that I would drop 2 lb of cane sugar into to pot to see if the yeast were hungry. Well...I have a huge mess in the basement I just finished cleaning up and the wife will probably be pissed about. The darn thing practically exploded with activity, formed a giant krausen and then overflowed onto the table...and the floor. I stirred it in and capped it for the night to see what happens from here.

[Oldvine Zin]

Adding sugar to a stuck ferment?? Is it just me or does that just sound like a bad idea?? In the wine world that I spend a lot of time in it's usually too much sugar causing the ferment to crap out.

[Bagasso]

I decided that I would drop 2 lb of cane sugar into to pot to see if the yeast were hungry.

If you dropped the suger in dry you recreated the mentos geyser science project.

[Monkeyman88]

Adding sugar to a stuck ferment?? Is it just me or does that just sound like a bad idea?? In the wine world that I spend a lot of time in it's usually too much sugar causing the ferment to crap out.

It might not be "stuck" it may have fermented all the available sugar. I've had an all molasses wash start at 1.080 and finish at 1.060. Adding sugar back up to an SG of 1.080, and it fermented back down to 1.060. Did this three times. I put it down to the batch of feed molasses I used being more unfermentable sugars than fermentable sugars.

[raketemensch]

Don't just feed sugar to the yeast, if it's stuck it's probably (in my limited experience, I'm no expert, or even much of an amateur) missing other nutrients or outside of its ph comfort zone.

I just had a 5th gen wash stop dead because of ph. I got it to limp along by throwing in oyster shells (which should've been there in the first place), and adding in some dissolved 20-20-20 fertilizer.

I was worried that I'd killed it, but I started the 6th gen with another 1/2 cup of shells, some 20-20-20 boiled with the backset, and no extra yeast, and it fermented down to 1.0.0 in 3 days.

It seems that it's hard to kill yeast, it's always just hungry for the right thing.

[Oldvine Zin]

It might not be "stuck" it may have fermented all the available sugar. I've had an all molasses wash start at 1.080 and finish at 1.060. Adding sugar back up to an SG of 1.080, and it fermented back down to 1.060. Did this three times. I put it down to the batch of feed molasses I used being more unfermentable sugars than fermentable sugars.

That's the point that I wanted to make - adding more sugar is not the solution

[Monkeyman88]

It might not be "stuck" it may have fermented all the available sugar. I've had an all molasses wash start at 1.080 and finish at 1.060. Adding sugar back up to an SG of 1.080, and it fermented back down to 1.060. Did this three times. I put it down to the batch of feed molasses I used being more unfermentable sugars than fermentable sugars.

That's the point that I wanted to make - adding more sugar is not the solution

Oh. The point I was making is that adding sugar is the solution. If everything else is fine, then it must be unfermentable sugars. Once I distilled my rum wash. I diluted the dunder down to 1.030. Added sugar back up to 1.080. And it fermented back down to 1.030.
Same thing has happened to me with all my batches from that bucket of molasses.

[sungazer]

Sorry I have got lost a bit in what you have done but do the two 5G batches you have made both have half a packet of EC1118 in them? What is the size of the packet? Here in Aus the packet would be 500 gram and cost about $45. what does the packet cost where you are?

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm on the same team as the blokes who say dump the sugar and the EC1118 and use Bakers yeast. EC1118 is perfect for fruit type washes,neturals and vodkas. Yummyrum is on the right track, if you want a full flavored rum ferment it hard and fast, run it then oak on medium toast american oak. Bakers yeast is tough stuff, you can pitch it at 38C and it will still get on with the job. At these temps the ferment will be pretty violent and you can easily end up with a mess to clean up if you don't leave head space in your fermenter.
If you dont have easy access to molasses to do all Molasses by all means use a bit of sugar, you will still get pretty good flavour.

[thecroweater]

Well now all molasses verses raw sugar molasses, this all depends on quality/brix of your molasses. Guys that live walking distance from a sugar mill are always going to say they don't understand why ppl add sugar. Of cause how could they understand, do an all molasses was to get a litre or so out of an 80 litre ferment and it will become crystal clear real fast as in it would be cheaper to buy a top shelf rum. Thing is the way I see it is what is stripped out fully stripped molasses is raw sugar so by using raw sugar in such molasses you are in actual fact not adding anything but replacing what was taken out. This is raw sugar I'm talking about not refined sugar or brown sugar which is refined sugar blended with sugar and may make a slightly different product. Using dunder is fine and in fact a good thing but becomes an issue when to much is used. Its acidic as all hell so one 8the if as far as I like to go and you will get a shit ton of flavour from that much

[rgreen2002]

Don't just feed sugar to the yeast, if it's stuck it's probably (in my limited experience, I'm no expert, or even much of an amateur) missing other nutrients or outside of its ph comfort zone.

I just had a 5th gen wash stop dead because of ph. I got it to limp along by throwing in oyster shells (which should've been there in the first place), and adding in some dissolved 20-20-20 fertilizer.

I was worried that I'd killed it, but I started the 6th gen with another 1/2 cup of shells, some 20-20-20 boiled with the backset, and no extra yeast, and it fermented down to 1.0.0 in 3 days.

It seems that it's hard to kill yeast, it's always just hungry for the right thing.

I decided that I would drop 2 lb of cane sugar into to pot to see if the yeast were hungry.

If you dropped the suger in dry you recreated the mentos geyser science project.

Yeah...seems similar. So Bagasso you think I just caused a CO2 bomb? Could explain why I have no more real action in the airlock.

Adding sugar to a stuck ferment?? Is it just me or does that just sound like a bad idea?? In the wine world that I spend a lot of time in it's usually too much sugar causing the ferment to crap out.

It might not be "stuck" it may have fermented all the available sugar. I've had an all molasses wash start at 1.080 and finish at 1.060. Adding sugar back up to an SG of 1.080, and it fermented back down to 1.060. Did this three times. I put it down to the batch of feed molasses I used being more unfermentable sugars than fermentable sugars.

MM - I agree. The thought was that since I have checked everything else above I had listed (added nutrient, temp near 80F, pH 5.2) I was down to two big possibilities: something wrong with the yeast...something wrong with their "environment". So....I can't change the yeast I changed the environment. Like Bagasso suggested, maybe the "explosion" wasn's any kind of yeast reactivation and maybe there is still something wrong with the wash...or maybe its just done... thanks for the help

Don't just feed sugar to the yeast, if it's stuck it's probably (in my limited experience, I'm no expert, or even much of an amateur) missing other nutrients or outside of its ph comfort zone.

I just had a 5th gen wash stop dead because of ph. I got it to limp along by throwing in oyster shells (which should've been there in the first place), and adding in some dissolved 20-20-20 fertilizer.

I was worried that I'd killed it, but I started the 6th gen with another 1/2 cup of shells, some 20-20-20 boiled with the backset, and no extra yeast, and it fermented down to 1.0.0 in 3 days.

It seems that it's hard to kill yeast, it's always just hungry for the right thing.

raketemensch - aside from stressing the yeast and creating off flavors I don't see the issue with adding sugar. Like I said I have already checked everything else I can including SG, pH, temp and added nutrients so I have nowhere else to go. This is already becoming a "Frankenwash" as it is and it may end up as a sac run anyway. Thanks.

Sorry I have got lost a bit in what you have done but do the two 5G batches you have made both have half a packet of EC1118 in them? What is the size of the packet? Here in Aus the packet would be 500 gram and cost about $45. what does the packet cost where you are?

The packets are 5 grams and they definitely got things going.

I'm on the same team as the blokes who say dump the sugar and the EC1118 and use Bakers yeast. EC1118 is perfect for fruit type washes,neturals and vodkas. Yummyrum is on the right track, if you want a full flavored rum ferment it hard and fast, run it then oak on medium toast american oak. Bakers yeast is tough stuff, you can pitch it at 38C and it will still get on with the job. At these temps the ferment will be pretty violent and you can easily end up with a mess to clean up if you don't leave head space in your fermenter.
If you don't have easy access to molasses to do all Molasses by all means use a bit of sugar, you will still get pretty good flavour.

SB - Agreed. I don't see me ever using a "fancy" yeast for rum again...or feed molasses...or a lot of other things! Thanks.

Thanks for the ideas so far... I'm thinking its a done deal with this wash. IT still has a vary faint sweet taste to it but maybe that's unfermentable sugar...Argh!

[thecroweater]

Oh yeah and my old dunder before it got unfortunately sterilized (long story)

[Monkeyman88]

Nice crow.

[moosemilk]

Oh yeah and my old dunder before it got unfortunately sterilized (long story)

It's...........BEAUTIFUL!

So sorry it got sterilized. Such a shame.