My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

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My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

Hi gang,

It's been a while since I posted last, to say this summer has been busy is an understatement.

Anyway, I fired up the cooker yesterday and started a new corn whisky run.

I used:
9 lbs cracked corn
1 lb barley malt
500g pure honey (about 1 cup, maybe a bit more)
~5.5 lbs sugar
1/2 teaspoon amylase

I heated 3 gals of water to about 190F. I stirred in the sugar, then added the honey, and then the corn. I turned the heat down (eventually killing it) and let the it sit for about 90 minutes. The corn gelled up nicely. When the heat was about 165 or so, I added another 1/2 gallon of water to help bring the heat down a bit further. At about 155F I added my barley malt and amylase. I kept the heat there for about an hour. The corn noticeably loosened up.

I strained out the corn and barley and poured the wash into a bucket, rinsing it with another 1 to 1-1/2 gals of water. The temp in the bucket was still kinda warm, maybe 120 - 130, but I dropped the beer-o-meter in there to see what the SG was. It was 1.03 on about 4 gals of wash. Ya, the temp was high for a good reading, but cooled down to room temp, it might've only bumped to 1.04 - 1.045.

So where did I go wrong? I really was expecting 1.06 - 1.07, maybe a bit more.

Thanks
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by HDNB »

i'm guessing on the reading.

6 lbs of sugar in 3.5 gallons of water would be close to 1.09 before the grain let anything go.

are those quantities correct or did i miss something?

edit: oops, i missed the other 1.5 gallons, that should still give you 1.055 with the sugar alone....so the high temp skews it for sure, i'd double check the hydrometer reading.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by der wo »

Did you mill the malted barley? Only fine milled such a small portion could be enough to convert all the starches.
I see, you used 1/2tsp amylase too. Is it the powdered one? Many here didn't have success with powdered enzymes. I have the suspicion, this amylase powder originaly was made not for grain, but for fruits with some starch content (like apples) for wine making. For wine making it's not important, that the starch gets fermentable, but it should be liquified for mouthfeel and optic. So in the sachet is only alpha-amylase and perhaps some pectolase (for the fruit skins).
So you have a single rest mashing (155F, way too high for creating mainly fermentable sugar) with extreme low malt content. You will get the alcohol from the added sugar and only a little bit from the grains.
And you didn't gelatinize the corn. So many starches were not solved and never saw an enzyme in their life. Cracked corn needs a many hours long cooking. You can shorten it with a finer grind, but then the straining is more difficult...

Read the NCHoochs Carolina Bourbon -Thread, learn the chapters malt amount, gelatinizing and premashing. And if you want to use enzymes, use liquid enzymes (you will read, that you need two different).


Edit: You "keeped the heat" at 155? How? By heating or insulating? Heating without constantly stirring is always a mistake, when enzymes shall work as long as possible. You create hotspots and the enzymes are killed much faster.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

Damn... that guy's good.....

Ask and thou shalt receive as the saying goes....

Powdered amylase... check, although it did say it was for all grain brewing. No mention of pectolase

Barley wasn't milled.... check

So 155 is too high for alpha amylase? I really did think I was on the right track....

It's not really that I kept the heat at 155, it was just easier to type it that way. I actually killed the heat at 155, but there was very little heat loss, maybe 5 degrees over 4o minutes.


Thanks for the input, I'm off to find NCHoochs Carolina Bourbon thread


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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by skow69 »

Everything der wo said. And you were trying to mash 10 lb. of grain in 3 1/'2 gallons of water. That is possible but it is pretty challenging. Probably better to keep it down around 2 lb. per gallon until you get the hang of it. And make sure you have some calcium in your water.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

Hmmm.... never thought of that.

There's a natural spring about 20 minutes north of me. That's where I've been going to get my water for my mashes. It never occurred to me to check the calcium levels.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by GrassHopper »

DoubleJ wrote:Damn... that guy's good.....

Ask and thou shalt receive as the saying goes....

Powdered amylase... check, although it did say it was for all grain brewing. No mention of pectolase

Barley wasn't milled.... check

So 155 is too high for alpha amylase? I really did think I was on the right track....

It's not really that I kept the heat at 155, it was just easier to type it that way. I actually killed the heat at 155, but there was very little heat loss, maybe 5 degrees over 4o minutes.


Thanks for the input, I'm off to find NCHoochs Carolina Bourbon thread


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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by HDNB »

wow!

der wo thatis some pretty outstanding detail! to catch all that amazes. how to create a successful ferment 101.

the obvious sugar/water was the easy answer. Der comes in and schools the whole post, Skow sweeps up the last bits.

with members like you two answering, the power of this forum is formidable.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by der wo »

Thank you...
But almost all I know about AG, I learned here.
DoubleJ wrote:So 155 is too high for alpha amylase? I really did think I was on the right track....
The alpha-amylase will stand 155 for a long time. But not the beta-amylase from the malt. And you need beta-amylase for creating fermentables (in theory the alpha-amylase should manage it too perhaps, but in practice not). Or you add gluco-amylase (the second of the two liquid enzymes) instead of using the beta from the malt. But this needs an even lower temp.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by HDNB »

der wo wrote: The alpha-amylase will stand 155 for a long time. But not the beta-amylase from the malt. And you need beta-amylase for creating fermentables (in theory the alpha-amylase should manage it too perhaps, but in practice not). Or you add gluco-amylase (the second of the two liquid enzymes) instead of using the beta from the malt. But this needs an even lower temp.
i agree, at the higher temperatures the enzymes will produce dextrins, the wash will not finish as low as you would want, leaving the unfermentables behind and limiting alcohol yield. I have found my best time in/results out at 148* others suggest even 143*, but with more time. at 148* i can get AG to finish under 1 consistantly, useing SEB gl liquid.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by der wo »

I add the main portion of malt at 135 F. But I sacrifice two small portions before at higher temps. The first while mashing in before gelatinizing, the second while cooling down at 165 F. Both 1/7 of the total malt content. So the main portion at 135 F is 5/7. 20% 2row in the grain bill is enough for a complete conversion this way without adding enzymes. At least with fine milled grains.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

HDNB wrote: useing SEB gl liquid.
What is SEB gl liquid?
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by bitter »

Google sebamylgl.pdf shoudl get you an info sheet on the enzymes.

B
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

der wo wrote:I sacrifice two small portions before at higher temps. The first while mashing in before gelatinizing, the second while cooling down at 165 F.
What's the purpose of sacrificing the two small portions at the higher temps if the higher temps kill the enzymatic reactions to begin with?

Sorry, my mind is simple, the advice seems conflictive...
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by HDNB »

DoubleJ wrote:
der wo wrote:I sacrifice two small portions before at higher temps. The first while mashing in before gelatinizing, the second while cooling down at 165 F.
What's the purpose of sacrificing the two small portions at the higher temps if the higher temps kill the enzymatic reactions to begin with?

Sorry, my mind is simple, the advice seems conflictive...
step up mashing thins the gelatinizing starches a bit on the way up, it keeps the mash thinner and stirrable. i do the same with Seb HT on the way up and the way down. SebHT is a high temp alphaamylase stable to around 185* (it works to 195* in my experience,maybe higher) specialtyenzymes.com is the manufacturer. (edit: but they only sell in 10kg + packages to pros)
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by rager »

OP, you are close, AG mashing takes a few trys to fingure out the kinks and be able to repeat when you want to. ive done enough AG now where i dont worry to much because im confident in what im doing. you will get there too.

the 155 is a little hi like others have said for mashing, buuut it is probably close to "strike temp" for your malted grains .

when my corn gets to 156ish (after 3 hours of cooking until its soft between my fingers and sticks to the mash paddle) i will add my malted grain, which wil then drop me to 146-148. this is apparently the best of both worlds for beta and alpha enxymes in your grains. I use liquid enzymes in all my mashes now because of how cheep and full proff they are .

i work with 5-7 gallon buckets and mash 9lbs of corn with 3lbs of malted grains and liquid enzymes for a 2.3lbs of grain to water. as long as i get over 1.06 im a happy man. anything more im stoked and will water down a bit.

get familur with brew calculaters like
http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

basically that whole site you should read at some point

heref is a more advanced reading but is probably some of the best info i have read on mashing. i keep it booked marked to share with others. if you can read this site and understand it , you will start making some good whiskey
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

also read up on "strike temps" in jimbos wheat thread. alot of fantastic info in there . that is where i started my ag adventure. corn can be tricky for a beginner. so starting with a single malt( corn, barley) will start you on the right path.

liquid enzymes, site looks a little wonky but i got my in 3 days. fast shipping and i think where most of use get them
https://enzymash.biz/index.php?route=pr ... ry&path=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

cheers good luck
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

Well, I have officially committed this batch to the porcelain gods. It is gone....

I am going to give it another go this Sunday, but this time just all grain to start - corn and barley - to at least prove my process from the advice given here. Once I think I have mashed in really well, I will add the sugar and aim for a SG of 1.06 - 1.07 on a 5 gal wash. I wont be using any external amylase either.

Admittedly though my head is kinda :crazy: I have heeded the advice above and going to do my best to implement it. The Braukaiser link posted by Rager does however lists somewhat contrary advice, specifically around the optimum gelatinazation temp of corn (144F - 171F), the optimal alpha-amylase temps (162F - 167F) and Beta-amylase temps (140F - 149F)

Regardless though, I am going to follow what I have read here.

I am going to use 8 lbs of cracked corn and 2 lbs of barley malt. I will take the time to mill the malt as fine as I can.

I will heat my corn longer this time - at least 2 hours, then let the heat fall to the 150F - 155F range for my malt strike temp. I am not sure what the temp will fall to after adding the 2 lbs of malt, I am guessing in the mid to high 140s.

So I guess the only question I have now is how long to hold the temp in this range to let the malt do its job.
Or should I just kill the heat altogether and let things be. If so, how long should I expect to wait before moving on to straining out the liquid.

Thanks all.

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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by rager »

that chart of gel temp as been brought up a few times here and most agree that gel temps and time need to be longer for corn but the temps for alpha and beta enzymes are accurate.

do 3 lbs of barley if you can.it will help with conversion and also add more potential suger , so its win win.

bring your corn to 155 after 2-3 hours . it has to be soft and ready to eat with a spoon . add your 3 lbs of barley malt and keep some cold water off to the side if need to drop. but wait though. that barley will suck the heat out. the goal is to land at the 148 mark. it will take a bunch of tries to get it right everytime. as you add the malt stir with the thermometer in the bucket so you can see how it drops . then you can figure out what 1# of malt will drop 1 degree of temp
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by rager »

in either case, if this is something you want to get right, do it until you get it right. you will be very happy with your hard work. dont mess with any other recipes until you nail it. it will make a hell of a drop. and then at that point you will have mastered corn and then simple malted whiskey will be a cake walk. time to dive in....
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by HDNB »

i don't see the same info conflicts, it all looks right, just a metter of interpretation.

after adding malt, stir it a few times for the first hour, maybe two then wrap it in a blanket (especially the top) and leave it overnight. adjust pitching temperature in the AM to 100* or less and throw the starter yeast in heavy in the morning.

that will give you maximum saccrification and going hard on the yeast is important, as there will be bacteria from the malt (mashed in at lower than pastuerization temperature) the yeast has to propigate and get to work faster than the bacteria, or they lose the race for dominance and the mash will be spoiled.

if you up the grain just a bit you won't need any sugar to hit the SG you want, and it will taste better in the end.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by der wo »

HDNB wrote:
DoubleJ wrote:
der wo wrote:I sacrifice two small portions before at higher temps. The first while mashing in before gelatinizing, the second while cooling down at 165 F.
What's the purpose of sacrificing the two small portions at the higher temps if the higher temps kill the enzymatic reactions to begin with?

Sorry, my mind is simple, the advice seems conflictive...
step up mashing thins the gelatinizing starches a bit on the way up, it keeps the mash thinner and stirrable. i do the same with Seb HT on the way up and the way down. SebHT is a high temp alphaamylase stable to around 185* (it works to 195* in my experience,maybe higher) specialtyenzymes.com is the manufacturer. (edit: but they only sell in 10kg + packages to pros)
Yes. At a high temperature the alpha-amylase of the malt is working very fast and effective. After this sacrificing the beta-amylase of the main portion of malt has better conditions to work. The beta-amylase is the piano playing allergic child we have to promote and worry all the time, the alpha-amylase is the undestuctable child we can push around after he cleaned our home.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by still_stirrin »

der wo wrote:...The beta-amylase is the piano playing allergic child we have to promote and worry all the time, the alpha-amylase is the undestuctable child we can push around after he cleaned our home.
That's a metaphor I've never heard before.....colorful.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

HDNB wrote:If you up the grain just a bit you won't need any sugar to hit the SG you want, and it will taste better in the end.
What is your suggestion?
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by HDNB »

DoubleJ wrote:
HDNB wrote:If you up the grain just a bit you won't need any sugar to hit the SG you want, and it will taste better in the end.
What is your suggestion?
here's a good thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=31677

i just HD google search for sg per pound.

(HD google search is in the blue bar at the top of the page ^^^. you can choose your SG, find your grain, find your conversion rate and with a bit 'o math you're in the chips.)

depending on my mash, i usually do 0.25kg/L or 2.2lbs per gal;lon....sometimes 2.5lbs/gal....some guys will go 3/gal, but damn, thats hard to stir.
i use SEB. if you hit the temps at the right Ph, it totally converts and finishes under 1. the yield is excellent
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by Oldvine Zin »

DoubleJ wrote:Well, I have officially committed this batch to the porcelain gods. It is gone....

JJ
Not sure why you didn't just try to run it, from your numbers should of be about 6% about the same that I just got with my steam mash that I'm not happy with - still going to run it with hopes of great flavors
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

I thought about it, but even after I pitched the yeast it just didn't seem to be fermenting. My air lock wasn't bubbling at all and when I popped the lid off, the wash just didn't look right, at least compared to the other ferments I have done. I'm not disappointed in having to dump the batch, it was literally only a few dollars in materials. I'm more disappointed in myself for messing up the mashing process.

But all is not lost. As of typing this post right now, I've got my BOP on the burner warming up 4 gals of water for my next go at it.



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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

Update...

I boiled up my water (4 gals) and dumped in 8 lbs of cracked corn. I also milled up my barley malt as fine as I could and added 1/4 pound to the corn. It's getting on 3 hours now. The corn has thickened up, but not quite as much as I've seen on previous batches. I'm guessing (and hoping) it had something to do with the small malt addition at the beginning. I'm going to let it go a bit longer and then cool it to 155F. Once I'm there I'll be adding in the remaining 1-3/4 lbs of my milled malt.
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by der wo »

DoubleJ wrote: the optimal alpha-amylase temps (162F - 167F) and Beta-amylase temps (140F - 149F)
An optimal temp for an enzyme exists only depending on the duration of the rest. 140F - 149F is perhaps the optimal beta-amylase temp for an 45min or 1h rest. 160 for a 5min rest and 135 for a 5h rest.

Not only me, also other members here recommend you a lower temp for the main portion of malt than 155 F. Me 135, HDNB 148 or 143.
15min 155F and the beta-amylase is dead. This graph is posted in a few threads here:
Beta_amylase_activity.gif
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by DoubleJ »

I thought I was following the advice.

My thinking was to aim for 155 as my initial strike temp for the malt. As it's added the temp will drop - and from that I was looking to hit 148.
Did I miss something in the written advice above?
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Re: My SG seemed low on my corn/barley

Post by still_stirrin »

DoubleJ,

A strike of 155 will get you 148-149 when mashing malt. But, if you're coming down from a corn gelatinization, you've already got more mass in the mash tun. So, the addition of malt won't drop your combined grain temperature that much (as desired). Its because of the ratio of mass of the total to components.

Make sense?
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