Reduced mash time by 2/3

[japsinok]

Been AG mashing a 10 gal/20# grain bill since Dec, working toward filling a 5gal barrel with carolina bourbon. Been getting OG=1.07 consistently, but mashing has always taken over 24hr (not counting the corn hydration time). I made 3 changes today (one by mistake) that have resulted in getting the same (1.07) in 8hr, and considerably less work. Change #1, pre-hydrated 14.4# corn for 36hr, instead of overnight (12~16 hr). Hydration conditions were unchanged (5gal H20 + 2 gal backset). Change #2, heated the corn to 160F and rested with sacrificial malt and 1Tbsp alpha-amylase for 1hr, instead of 30 mins. Change #3 (the mistake), I accidentally added the malted grains (5.6# 6-row and rye) at 160F (when I add the alpha-amylase) instead of at 145F.

Started heating the hydrated corn at 8:30 this morning and began to saccharify (added 1Tbsp gluconase,140F) at 14:00. Left to gather parts to make a liebig (but that's a story for another thread) and when I returned at 17:00 (5pm), it BRIXed at 18 and is very sweet. I double checked with the hydrometer and it too read just above 1.07. And it passed the iodine check. So now, all I need is a wort chiller!!

Total mash time: 8.5 hr (and I wasn't there for much of that time). I left during the 1hr 160 alpha rest, and for the 3hr 140F gluconase rest.
And it should cool to pitching temp by tonight.

My thoughts/speculation:
Changes 1 and 2: Longer hydration and longer pre-gelatin facilitated starch release before saccharification.

Change 3: Adding the malted grains at 160 both increased the amount of active alpha-amylase, and sped up the activity of the beta-amylase in the malt, though also denatured it quicker. Then when I added the 1Tbsp of AG300l gluconase at 140, much of the beta activity had already taken place and was finished by the time the mash cooled to 140F. The 3hr saccharification (14:00-17:00) clearly got the job done, and I did not have to add any additional AG300L gluconase as I have in the past. I just hope I can repeat this.

I'm sure many of you AG folks already have the mash time down to this short or shorter, but for me, this is a breakthrough where I can spend the morning mashing and still get other things accomplished while it saccharifies in the afternoon. It's still more work, I'm sure, than the no boil method, but I don't have to mill anything, simply using TSC cracked corn and malts I have milled at the LHBS.

[der wo]

Do you recommend your new method before the fermentation is done?
Hotter temps will help to get fast a high SG. But they will cause a high FG. You don't know before. Neither a hydrometer nor a iodine test can find it out for you.
But anyway, when adding alpha-amylase and glucoamylase (glucanase is the wrong term), you don't have to follow the protocol anymore. You let the enzymes work fast and die fast and then you add new ones to finish the job.

[japsinok]

Do you recommend your new method before the fermentation is done?
Hotter temps will help to get fast a high SG. But they will cause a high FG. You don't know before. Neither a hydrometer nor a iodine test can find it out for you.
But anyway, when adding alpha-amylase and glucoamylase (glucanase is the wrong term), you don't have to follow the protocol anymore. You let the enzymes work fast and die fast and then you add new ones to finish the job.

At this point, I am more documenting than recommending. Ferments have been finishing near 1.000, sometimes just above, and most recently just under. The only difference in temperature this time from my prior mashing is that I added the malted grains at just above 160F rather than just above 140F. So, we'll see if that difference affects FG. When I began with AG mashing several months ago, still being a novice, I decided to use alpha- and gluco-amylase (my bad on the terminology) enzymes as insurance for the natural enzymes in malted grain. But something in those three changes really enhanced the rate, if not yield. In fact, when the mash had finally cooled to under 90F last night, it BRIXed at 19 (1.079). Fermenters are bubbling this morning so I'll post an update on FG when it finishes later this week.

[der wo]

The higher temp has speed it up. That's sure.

And there is nothing wrong to add enzymes even if the dp of the grain bill is enough without them. I don't think, it's something only for novices. I have the smallest package from enzymash and will not consume it until it gets mold probably. So why not adding to every mash a few drops of it. The only downside is, that you learn less about enzymes and conversion when using enzymes (I am speaking also of me).

If you get now the same FG as always, the next question is, if the high temp had a negative effect on the FG, if you didn't had added enzymes. And this will be unanswerable unfortunately. So your success will only indicate, that adding enzymes doesn't hurt and that with adding enzymes you can speed the conversion up and that you don't need the beta-amylase from the malt when using glucoamylase. Nothing new.
But nothing generally wrong with you mashing method.

[japsinok]

Next time, I will hydrate and pre-mash for the longer times, but add the malted grain at the "correct" temperature to determine if this had any effect on the conversion rate apart from the temp increase. If I can tease out one little piece of useful information to maximize yield and minimize time/effort, it will have been a useful exercise.

[der wo]

If I can tease out one little piece of useful information to maximize yield and minimize time/effort, it will have been a useful exercise.

Yes. For recipes using added enzymes. Not for recipes without them.

[japsinok]

Agreed. In fact I think probably I am already flirting with the upper end of desired yield at OG=1.079 on this mash.

I am basically a tinkerer, and as I get more comfortable with consistent mashing, it'll be fun to play around with temps and enzyme usage (or even not using them) to learn the effects on mash time and yield, and ultimately the quality of what comes out of the condenser.

I'm still new to this and since we all travel our own road, I will hopefully pick up some of the knowledge along the way that many on here, like you, learned a long time ago. Thanks for your feedback.

[japsinok]

when adding alpha-amylase and glucoamylase (glucanase is the wrong term),

Duh!! My brain is working slowly today. It just randomly popped into my head why glucanase is the wrong term (i.e., since it's not breaking down glucose)!!

[der wo]

Glucanase is the enzyme useful for mashing rye.

[japsinok]

I suppose glucans are what makes rye so slimy. Yes? That hasn't been a problem in my 18% rye mash bill. But I do plan to try an all rye at some point, so I suppose it would be useful for me know the proper enzymes under discussion!!

[speedfreaksteve]

I suppose glucans are what makes rye so slimy. Yes? That hasn't been a problem in my 18% rye mash bill. But I do plan to try an all rye at some point, so I suppose it would be useful for me know the proper enzymes under discussion!!

I've done rye mashes as high as 80%. At that point doing a glucan rest is pretty much mandatory unless you want to be mashing a big pile of glue. I've found the rest doesn't even have to be very long. 30-90 mins depending on the amount of mash. Also I've accomplished a rest by adding the rye at around 115-120F and then slowly letting the temperature climb up to mashing temp. Using a little more than a 2lbs grain/gallon ratio can help too.

[japsinok]

I suppose glucans are what makes rye so slimy. Yes? That hasn't been a problem in my 18% rye mash bill. But I do plan to try an all rye at some point, so I suppose it would be useful for me know the proper enzymes under discussion!!

I've done rye mashes as high as 80%. At that point doing a glucan rest is pretty much mandatory unless you want to be mashing a big pile of glue. I've found the rest doesn't even have to be very long. 30-90 mins depending on the amount of mash. Also I've accomplished a rest by adding the rye at around 115-120F and then slowly letting the temperature climb up to mashing temp. Using a little more than a 2lbs grain/gallon ratio can help too.

Thanks SFS, that's good information to have in my back pocket when I do a rye.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Another option that I've used is to use SebFlo Tl, this will reduce beta glucans thinning the mash and giving you a better conversion. It can also be used for a pure barley mas as well.

[japsinok]

Thanks for another useful suggestion RHB. You guys are getting me in the mood to start that rye project. Got to finish the carolina bourbon first

[RedwoodHillBilly]

No problem, The Seb enzymes make mashing easy and give a great conversion as well as a good attenuation.

[japsinok]

Update to the quicker mashing time. Well, no clear answer on if the shorter time was mostly due to increased temp (when I mashed in the malt grains at 160F),or longer hydration and pre-mash times.

This weekend I repeated the mash using the longer (36hr) soak/hydration of the 14.4# cracked corn but regular mash-in temp for malted grain. Heated cracked corn to 160 (in 5gal water +2 gal backset) and added 2 cups 6-row and 1Tbsp alpha-amylase. Left to pre-mash for 2hr, then brought to boil for 1hr as usual. Cooled and mashed in 2# 6-row and 3.6# rye at the conventional 145F, then added 1Tbsp glucoamylase at 140F.

Last night it BRIXed at 15.5 (1.063). So, not bad, but still not what I have been getting. Heated back to 140F, added a second Tbsp each of alpha- and glucoamylase and wrapped in blankets overnight. This morning it measured 1.075 with the hydrometer, and 18.75 (=1.077) with the refractometer. (I like the independent confirmation!).

So...24 hr to get to the OG I have been getting.

I lowered the OG to just under 1.07 for fermenting and it's still cooling. Will pitch DADY later today.

To Der wo's point about higher mashing yielding unfermentables. Last weekend's quick mash was down to 1.005 after 5 days (fermenting at 75F), when I went ahead and stripped it. So, if mashing the grains at 160F gave unfermentables (limit dextrins?), I assume that adding the glucoamylase at 140 mostly took care of that, though 1.005 was in fact a little bit higher than these mashes have been finishing out, and it may not have been completely done when I stripped it.

Next weekend I will use the shorter hydration/premash times and the higher mash-in temp since this did not appear to give unacceptable amounts of unfermentable sugars, and will see if I can repeat the 8hr mash time to get 1.07 and still get FG near 1.000.

The experiment continues.....