Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Pierrot Lunaire 55
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Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Howdy: I've been at this for a while now, and I have always been disappointed with the amount of alcohol I have been getting from my mash. Moving from batch to batch, I have made improvements, such as cooking the corn longer, getting it more gelatinized, etc. Here's my working recipe:

Bring 11 gallons of water to a boil.
Add 20 lbs, of cracked corn. While stirring continuously, bring back to a boil and simmer for 15 to 20 minutes.
Turn off the heat and let sit with the lid on for 20 to 30 minutes.
Transfer to a 20-gallon plastic garbage can while adding 5 lbs of crushed rye malt.
Let this sit for at least 60 minutes with the lid on with occasional stirring.
When the time has elapsed remove the lid and allow to cool, stirring occasionally and monitoring the temperature.
When the temperature falls just below 155 ºF, stir in 7 lbs of crushed distiller’s malt, plus some amylase enzyme.
Put the lid back on and let sit for at least 60 minutes with occasional stirring.
When the time has elapsed, remove the lid and allow to cool until it has reached the point where it can be strained. Pour the liquid back and forth several times to aerate and move it to two beer fermentation jugs. Typical yield, 9 gallons with a starting SG of 1.075+.
Add hydrated yeast solution (Lalvin EC-1118) and let nature take its course.

Soooo, here's the problem. The mash ferments like crazy for a couple days, and then quits. The final SG is usually 1.040-1.045. I end up with maybe 6% ABV. It's good, but there isn't enough of it.
Suggestions I've seen so far:
• Pay more attention to pH (I'm using Lake Michigan tap water)
• Run an iodine test to make sure I'm getting full starch conversion
• Add the rye at a lower temperature, closer to the distiller's malt
• Add yeast nutrient
• Add the distiller's malt at a slightly lower temperature, closer to 145 ºF

I'm thinking it's the yeast. I have used the EC-1118 consistently. Is there something else I should be checking or a different kind of yeast?
Looking for ideas as the mashing season starts up again.
Thanks!
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by greggn »

> Add the distiller's malt at a slightly lower temperature, closer to 145 ºF


That's your (primary) problem.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Oldvine Zin »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Soooo, here's the problem. The mash ferments like crazy for a couple days, and then quits. The final SG is usually 1.040-1.045. I end up with maybe 6% ABV. It's good, but there isn't enough of it.
At 1.04 I would say that your fermentation has not finished, are you sure that it quits after a couple of days or maybe it just slows down??


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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pikey »

I'm thinking your temperatures are too high when adding the malt.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote: Bring 11 gallons of water to a boil.
Add 20 lbs, of cracked corn. And 2lbs rye malt. Then rest at least 30min before heating up While stirring continuously, bring back to a boil and simmer for 15 to 20 minutes.
Turn off the heat and let sit with the lid on for 20 to 30 minutes. Insulate it and let it slowly cool down, perhaps overnight.
Transfer to a 20-gallon plastic garbage can while adding 5 lbs of crushed rye malt. 2lbs rye malt and the amylase enzyme at 160F.
Let this sit for at least 60 minutes with the lid on with occasional stirring.
When the time has elapsed remove the lid and allow to cool, stirring occasionally and monitoring the temperature.
When the temperature falls just below 155 ºF, stir in 7 lbs of crushed distiller’s malt, plus some amylase enzyme. The rest of the rye malt and all the barley malt at 135F. Then insulate it and let cool down slowly until yeast pitching temp.

• Pay more attention to pH (I'm using Lake Michigan tap water) Simply get some calcium carbonate, sea shells, gardening chalk. 1Tbsp per 10l water
• Run an iodine test to make sure I'm getting full starch conversion Useless IMO. Your SG is ok, so the iodine test will be ok too probably. The problem is the FG.
• Add the rye at a lower temperature, closer to the distiller's malt
• Add yeast nutrient I like to add them. But it is not part of your problem
• Add the distiller's malt at a slightly lower temperature, closer to 145 ºF
I would mill the malt fine. At least the barley malt.

I'm thinking it's the yeast. I have used the EC-1118 consistently. Is there something else I should be checking or a different kind of yeast?
Looking for ideas as the mashing season starts up again. I don't think such a proven yeast is the problem
Thanks!
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pikey »

der wo - I have been looking at my first AG and Have saved your post in Word as a "Way to do it" document - I hope you don't mind ? 8)
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Ok, herr der wo: Let me make sure I understand some of your points:

Dump in the corn, turn off the heat, and let it sit for 30 minutes. After that, turn the heat back on?

If I go get some pH testing strips, what pH should I be aiming at?

Interesting process of adding the rye in stages. I'm trying to figure out what the purpose is of that.

Vielen dank.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote:Dump in the corn, turn off the heat, and dump in 2lbs rye malt and let it sit for at least 30 minutes. After that, turn the heat back on? Yes.
If I go get some pH testing strips, what pH should I be aiming at? The grains will lower the pH by itself. No measuring needed. Only if you want to use backset you need testing strips. Calcium carbonate buffers the pH, that it won't drop too much.
Interesting process of adding the rye in stages. I'm trying to figure out what the purpose is of that. It is no special rye thing. Adding some of the malt before cooking and after cooking at a high temp will make the mash thin very fast. Then the mash is ready for a slow and complete conversion at a low temp without destroying the enzymes. If you use a low temp for the main portion of malt, you have prepare the starches before. The low temp alone doesn't work well.
Pikey wrote:der wo - I have been looking at my first AG and Have saved your post in Word as a "Way to do it" document - I hope you don't mind ? 8) I work the same way like you. I have many XXX.txt files with copy&pastes from here too...
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Very good. I will report the results of a test run but it could take a couple weeks at this point.

By the way, I am also building an agitator like yours. I learned the hard way how quickly corn burns in the bottom of the pot and stirring by hand just makes your arms tired. I like your use of the chain.

Thanks.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote:By the way, I am also building an agitator like yours.
I am interested. :thumbup: Also for distilling or only for mashing?
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Mashing, primarily. I haven't had much problem with the distillation side. I strain out the solids before fermenting.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Observations and results from following this procedure:

Armed with instructions from Herr Der Wo, I launched a single batch of mash following his modified instructions.

When the water came to a boil, I added the corn and 2 lbs of rye, turned off the heat and let it rest for 35 minutes with the lid on. After time elapsed, I turned the burner back on, broke up the layer on the bottom and let it heat back up while using my new mixer. (Pictured. A close look will show the gooey contents.) Half an hour later it was bubbling slowly and nearly boiling over so I shut it down. It was about as gooey and gelatinous as can be. After waiting a while I transferred to the garbage can, added 2 lbs of rye and let it cool slowly. When it reached 160º, I added amylase enzyme and the last 2 lbs of rye (6 lbs of rye total). An hour or more later, I added my cooler and took the temperature down to about 133º...overshot just a tad. Interestingly enough, it seemed largely converted to sugar even by this point. The gooey/cloudy character associated with the starch had already diminished almost completely, so the amylase had already done its job. I stirred in the 7 lbs of distillers malt, put the lid back on and waited.

Once it had cooled enough to be strained, aerated and moved to the fermentation jugs, I ended up with about 8 gallons split evenly between two jugs. (pH at this point was <4.6). I added about 3 tablespoons of yeast nutrient (food grade ammonium phosphate and urea from my local brewing supply store) plus about 3/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride to each jug. (Total for the batch: 6 T nutrient, 1.5 tsp calcium chloride) pH at this point was about 5.4. I added 1 packet of EC-1118 yeast, hydrated, to each jug and added the fermentation locks. Bottom line, everything looked much the same as my usual recipe. I checked the SG using a refractometer and found it to be about 1.060, which seemed a little disappointing. I've had it as high as 1.075 before, but I didn't want to worry too much about it at this point. (I did not take a conventional float hydrometer reading, which was probably a mistake.)

Five days later fermentation had stopped and the normal layer of sediment formed in the fermenters. A check using a float hydrometer showed a finished SG about 1.005, which was very encouraging. (Yes, I shouldn't be mixing my instruments...)

I put it in my apparatus using the pot configuration and heated it up. I probably had about 7.5 gal of liquid in the boiler. I was very happy to see the temperature curve begin to flatten at about 197º and flow commenced shortly thereafter. The verdict: alcohol content probably darn close to 10%. I ran half-a-jelly-jar of foreshots and began collecting the product. The first half-gallon jar checked out at 48%. The second half-gallon jar checked out at about 33%. I ran one more quart which was down around 20%. By now the boiling point was getting pretty close to the maximum so I quit.

The result is promising, but if you consider how much alcohol I actually recovered, it's pretty low. Even adding the foreshots back (in theory) I recovered maybe 2 quarts of alcohol. Am I looking for too much? Opinions?

Anyway, thanks to der wo and the other commenters.
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The mixer has a paddle agitator near the bottom to prevent burning. It turns at about 58 RPM. Works great.
The mixer has a paddle agitator near the bottom to prevent burning. It turns at about 58 RPM. Works great.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

What was the volume before straining out the grain?
When you close it with the lid, do you stir it too or do you simply wait. Agitation is important when the enzymes are in. Agitation is not needed only while gelatinization (after heating it up to a boil and waiting that it cools down).
The milling grade was the same like last time?
Why did you stop the stripping run so early? From 7.5gal I would strip 2.5gal.
From 1.060 to 1.005 is 7.2%. You recovered only 80-85% from the alcohol, because you stopped so early. Last time from 1.075 to 1.040 was 4.6%. So it is an improvement. But I need the volume before straining to judge it complete.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

The volume after adding all the grain and before straining is probably close to 15 gallons. Those solids, particularly the corn, seem to soak up a lot. I've never weighed the extracted grain, but it might be an interesting exercise. I extract the liquid using a strainer bag in a mop press, so I try to get all I can.

The grain milling is like usual. The malt is pretty well crushed and the corn is pretty fine.

During the enzyme phases, I stir regularly. I'm making another electric mixer just for that.

As for starting SG, I'm a little suspicious of that reading. I'll wager it was actually higher. I should have taken a float reading at that point.

I'll have to let the stripping run go longer. I usually quit when it gets close to boiling point. My impatience.

Thanks.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

From 15gal via straining to 8gal. You lost almost 50%! Perhaps you need a better straining method. I can't help here. I tried from the very beginning (after the first attempt failed) to distill Corn on the grain. With an insulation, heating up with open lid and stirring, and then very slow distilling it was possible even without an agitator.

33lbs grain up to 15gal mash. 1.070 - 1.075 is possible. Perhaps it was more than 1.060. But your stripping result doesn't show that. To strip down to 0% is always the best measuring tool.

You only have to close the lid with two more boards. Nor build another agitator.
Does the motor get very hot?

Are you shure the calculating with the measuring of the boiling point works well? You measured 10%abv. What seems to be wrong unfortunately. For me it looks you stopped way before reaching 100°C.


I would mill the malt fine. I think, this is the main problem.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Watching the boiler temperature as it climbs up is challenging. I have a thermowell in the boiler that extends down into the liquid. I put an RTD down at the bottom where it should get an accurate reading, although there is some time lag. Maybe it wasn't 10%, but it was boiling at a lower temperature than I have had previously, so overall the process certainly did improve. I'll take that as an incremental victory.

The motor is OK. It is 1/8 hp (0.093 kW) so it is powerful enough to keep the pot going without working too hard. Look at the picture again and keep in mind that is a 15 gal pot, with 11 gal of water to start. Corn and rye bring it close to the top.

Thanks.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Back to der wo's remarks, let me clarify one point: The mash begins with 11 gal of water. Adding all the solids raises the volume to ~15 gal, but it adds no more liquid. So I am going from 11 gal to 8 gal during the straining process. The missing 3 gal go out absorbed by the corn. Maybe I could extract a bit more, but the volume of the dry corn to begin with is about 3 gal, plus 13 pounds of malt with all the hulls and such. Trying to capture an additional quart or two would be a lot of work.

So back to the pH question. I added the calcium chloride at the time I put the mash into the fermenter jugs, but this was based on the assumption that the pH balance is necessary for fermentation. Is pH also critical for the enzyme action? Should the calcium chloride be added sooner? Say at the same time as the distiller's malt?

Thanks.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

But of the 4gal solids around 70% get soluble during the mashing. So after mashing you have only 4 - (4 x 0.7) = 1.2gal solids. So the "100% perfect straining" would mean, you add 4gal grain to 11gal water and get 15 - 1.2 = 13.8gal mash. This number is theory only of course. But you can see, if you only have 8gal strained mash at the end, you have lost 13.8 - 8 = 5.8gal strained mash.

From practical I can say, that with a pure malted barley mash it is possible to get for example from 10gal water + grain at the end 10gal strained mash. But then the straining isn't such clear like brewers like, it's a dirty straining with much pressing the grains. And with corn you will get never such a good result.

I never used calcium chloride.
At least if you don't use backset for mashing and you don't use distilled water, no pH correction is needed.
I always use calcium carbonate to prevent a pH crash while fermentation. I also added it a few times to the water before mashing. It didn't make a difference. The tap water I have is high in calcium.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

OK, I've done two more batches, and have reached, or come very close to the elusive 10% figure. I used the techniques outlined here, with the addition that I ground the cracked corn a little finer. I didn't add any kind of pH buffer.

Starting SG was about 1.075 and (drum roll....) the finish SG was about 1.010 on one batch and maybe 1.006 on the other. Fermentation went on much longer than I'm used too. More energetic early on too. Still not 1.000, but it's far better than I was getting.

On both batches, I started getting a flow out of the pot still during the stripping run at about 93.2º to 93.4º C. (It's hard to be very precise with my temp setup. I need to work on that.) Not a bad day.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

Gratulations!
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

By the way, from the pot still:

First jar (half gallon): 55%
Second jar: 46%
Third jar: 30%
Fourth jar: 19%

Not bad.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by bluefish_dist »

I have found that finish sg is influenced by ph and available calcium. both make a difference. Not enough calcium available and it won't finish. If ph is out of range (should be 5-5.4) at pitch it will finish higher as well.

My question would be why such high starting sg for an all grain? 6% makes good whiskey.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pikey »

1.04 FG is rubbish !

EC1118 is a slow yeast - 2 days barely gets it started. Tell us what the gravity is after a month :)
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

More to the point EC1118 is a poor choice of yeast for a whisky, or rum for that matter.
Its good for Fruit washes and Neutral sugar washes.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by der wo »

bluefish_dist wrote:My question would be why such high starting sg for an all grain? 6% makes good whiskey.
So Lagavulin is not a good Whisky? The have 9% washes. And American Bourbon washes have 10% normally.
6% makes a clean Whiskey. As always, the more water you add the cleaner the taste will be. Of course you can influence it with cuts and reflux too, how clean it turns out at the end, but the wash abv is the starting point.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

Two (maybe three) points:

I have a much different experience with EC-1118. Once I put it in the mash, I have active bubbling within two hours. On this last batch, within 12 hours, it was going like crazy. When fermentation is finished, I have a wonderful smelling product with no funky odors.

I also understand what 6% wash is like. That's what I got all last season. It does indeed produce good whiskey. But if I'm going to spend all that time to make mash, I'd rather have half-again as much alcohol in it to make half-again as much finished product.

Let's be clear about motivation. I'm not doing this because it's my only source of booze. Buying good bourbon would be much cheaper. I want to master the process. If there is potential to create 10% wash, then I want to create 10% wash to prove I can do it. It's about understanding how it all works and doing it effectively and efficiently. I'm sticking with all-grain recipes, but I'm convinced that I can get 10%, and I won't be satisfied until I can do that predictably every time. Forgive me if I'm getting a little obsessed, but I'm probably not the only one within these ranks who fixates on a goal.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by still_stirrin »

Pierrot Lunaire 55 wrote:...Let's be clear about motivation...I want to master the process. If there is potential to create 10% wash, then I want to create 10% wash to prove I can do it...
Oh, sorry. I thought you started this thread with a question about a process failure. Subsequent replies provided insight, but now it sounds like you're in the "driver's seat". Good luck to you.

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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

You're right. I came here, frustrated by my failures, to get advice. I got advice from many sources which I appreciate. It has helped enormously and changed my mashing practices. More tweaks will come (I hope) to use time more efficiently and better control the overall process. If I gain insights that can help others, I will.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by Pierrot Lunaire 55 »

A new brewing season has commenced, and using the modified recipe, it looks like I'm in good shape to get pretty predictable 10% yield batches.

Both SG change: 1.090 to 1.010; and boiling point at about 92 ºC suggest I'm in the right neighborhood.

Thanks for all the collective help.
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Re: Why don't I get more alcohol from this mash?

Post by DuckofDeath »

based on 85% efficiency your 25 lbs of grain should be getting a SG around 1.071 so around 9% if it finishes .999

20X33= 660
5x25 = 125
785/11 = 71

so SG 1.071
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