Possibly noob corn mash questions

[aczesz]

I have been using some grainland select rolled corn to make my mashes. For the life of me I cant get the SG above 1.030. I usually heat 6gal of water to 165*f then add it to a cooler that has a false bottom and mix in 16lbs of the corn. I stir it until the temp drops to 150*F then add 1.5lbs of 2row malted barley and let it sit for 90min stirring it occasionally then drain into a carboy. Now my question is why is my SG so low?! Am i not heating the corn enough, or should i be using more malted barely? I do an iodine test before and after and it looks like all the starches are being converted to sugars in the liquid.

For comparison, I ran a corn meal mash that was 15lbs of corn meal and 1.5lbs of barley and i got an SG of 1.060 using the same procedure as stated above. I dont want to use corn meal because it takes forever to drain and clogs my false bottom and its more expensive for 15lbs than buying a 50lb bag of rolled corn at the feed store.

I have attached a picture of the corn I am using.

[dieselduo]

Looks like it should be milled more if you want better conversion

[skow69]

1 Do you need to be so frugal with the malt? I would double it at least. Or supplement with some store bought enzymes.

2 Do you know for sure if your rolled corn has been gelatinized? You may need to cook it.

3 You are mashing at almost 3 lb/gal. A lower ratio would make it easier to get good conversion.

4 Have you checked the pH? You may need to correct it. I aim for 5.3 - 5.5.

5 Check your water chemistry. If it is very soft, you may need to add some calcium carbonate.

6 Finer grind makes it easier, but I know you are trying to avoid that

I hear you saying, "But it worked so good with the meal." Actually, you only got 22 ppg on that mash. I don't feel successful unless I hit 30.

On the other hand, some guys figure feed corn is so cheap that it is not worth the time and trouble to jump thru all the hoops to get good conversion. Just use more corn. I understand that point, too. In your case, at 3 lb/gal, I think you already used that option.

[aczesz]

1 Do you need to be so frugal with the malt? I would double it at least. Or supplement with some store bought enzymes.

2 Do you know for sure if your rolled corn has been gelatinized? You may need to cook it.

3 You are mashing at almost 3 lb/gal. A lower ratio would make it easier to get good conversion.

4 Have you checked the pH? You may need to correct it. I aim for 5.3 - 5.5.

5 Check your water chemistry. If it is very soft, you may need to add some calcium carbonate.

1. No I do not, I can throw more in. Is there a ratio of unmalted grain to malted grain I should be following?
2. The guy at the feed store said that it had been steam rolled. I know it did not gelatinize in my mashton since everything felt pretty liquidy.
3. I could add another gallon or two, but after that my 10gal mashton will be topped out with all the grain and water.
4. PH of my tap water is 7.13, checked it yesterday. Sounds like I need to add some acid. Best thing to add as an acid that I could pick up at a local store?
5. We have hard well water where I live and we do not use a softener.

[aczesz]

Looks like it should be milled more if you want better conversion

I have a corona mill so the next batch I will try milling it finer.

[bilgriss]

Finer milling of the corn and an appropriate cook or no-cook method of gelatinizing corn starches is important for yield.
Since you are using softened water, throw in some gypsum and epson salts with your mash. A little acid to lower the starting pH.
I suspect these are your main obstacles.

[skow69]

1. No I do not, I can throw more in. Is there a ratio of unmalted grain to malted grain I should be following?
That depends on the diastatic power of your malt. There is a bit of math involved, but 20% to 25% malt should get you in the ballpark.
2. The guy at the feed store said that it had been steam rolled. I know it did not gelatinize in my mashton since everything felt pretty liquidy.
Cooking corn is a PITA, but if it doesn't get hydrated it won't convert for squat.
3. I could add another gallon or two, but after that my 10gal mashton will be topped out with all the grain and water.
2 lb/gal is a kind of rule of thumb. You can mash higher ratios, it's just harder.
4. PH of my tap water is 7.13, checked it yesterday. Sounds like I need to add some acid. Best thing to add as an acid that I could pick up at a local store?
Citric acid. In the canning supplies.
5. We have hard well water where I live and we do not use a softener.

I see mashing as a complex process with many variables. You don't have to get them all perfect, but you do have to get enough of them close enough. So the better you control the ones you can, the more slack you can afford on the ones you can't.

Keep at it and stuff will start falling into place. Good luck.

[HDNB]

cook ye corn for 90 minutes at 190* and above.

the Ph will drop to 6ish

use 25% of the grain bill as malt or use store bought enzymes too

use 10% ish of backset/water after the corn cookn if you want to lower the ph more, to 5.2 or so, then add the malt

the well water should be awesome. don't soften it (most softeners use sodium ion, yeast don't lurv sodium)

that corn looks cracked not steam rolled; never seen anything but barley and oats steam rolled and they look whole, flat and plump. (and require more milling). on second look, that corn don't be milled enough, steam rolled or no. gring it up.
If you cook the cracked corn for 90 minutes as described, you'll hit over 1.06 with that weight/water.

1. No I do not, I can throw more in. Is there a ratio of unmalted grain to malted grain I should be following? 25%
2. The guy at the feed store said that it had been steam rolled. I know it did not gelatinize in my mashton since everything felt pretty liquidy.starch not released
3. I could add another gallon or two, but after that my 10gal mashton will be topped out with all the grain and water.add a hint of backset after corn cook
4. PH of my tap water is 7.13, checked it yesterday. Sounds like I need to add some acid. Best thing to add as an acid that I could pick up at a local store?use backset
5. We have hard well water where I live and we do not use a softener. good

[RedwoodHillBilly]

that corn looks cracked not steam rolled; never seen anything but barley and oats steam rolled and they look whole, flat and plump. (and require more milling). on second look, that corn don't be milled enough, steam rolled or no. gring it up.
If you cook the cracked corn for 90 minutes as described, you'll hit over 1.06 with that weight/water.

That looks just like the steam rolled corn that I get. I also get steam rolled barley. I do grind them to a fine powder/flour using a hammer mill, and that really helps with the conversion. This is the hammer mill that I bought https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010T7QGLK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I ferment and distill on the grain, so the flour isn't a problem.

[aczesz]

Thanks a ton for the input guys!! I ground the corn a little finer and it is right now in a big pot in the oven getting up to 190*, it has already absorbed a ton of water. I will try and take some pics and post pictures as I go today for other people like me to see.

[Pikey]

Thanks a ton for the input guys!! I ground the corn a little finer and it is right now in a big pot in the oven getting up to 190*, it has already absorbed a ton of water. I will try and take some pics and post pictures as I go today for other people like me to see.

Hey - We ALL want to see !

[aczesz]

Thanks a ton for the input guys!! I ground the corn a little finer and it is right now in a big pot in the oven getting up to 190*, it has already absorbed a ton of water. I will try and take some pics and post pictures as I go today for other people like me to see.

Hey - We ALL want to see !

You got it!!

[aczesz]

Ok an update on todays mashing. Since everything got numbered in my posts I will number the steps I took.

1. Ingredients: 15lbs grainland select rolled corn, 4lbs 2row domestic malted barley, water.

2. Ground the corn semi fine, between cornmeal and the picture I posted in my first post.

3. Put the corn in a large 8gal pot and put in the oven set to 300* for 2ish hours. The starting temp of the water was around 100 and it worked its way up to 190 after stirring. Did not burn the corn at all and the pot was very easy to wash after. Stirred 3 times over the 2ish hours. I should have put more water in (put in maybe 2-3gal) as the corn soaked up literally all the water and turned into a crazy gelatin.

4. Plopped it into my sparging cooler and added a few gallons of water. It turned into a super soupy mixture and the corn and water never separated. There were some super starchy globs I broke up with the spoon while stirring. Starting temp in the cooler was about 166 and let it drop to 148 before I started the next step. Measured the PH before the next step and it was at 5.17, and my starting water ph was 7.12. I did not add any backset

5. Added the 4lbs of malted barley and sired until it was thoroughly mixed. Let it set for about 2hrs siring occasionally and the temp dropped to 140* at the end. At the end the water would separate out and sit on top of the grain. Did the iodine test and it passed with flying colors. Check the pictures for a photo.

6. Heated 5ish gal of water to 160* and added it to the top of the cooler when i opened up the valve. The flow is super slow as you can see in the photos. Next time I will probably use a grain bag

Now I just have to wait till the morning for it to finish draining into the fermenting tank and I will take the specific gravity then and post it so everybody knows how this process turned out!!

[aczesz]

It is now the morning and 9gal of wash has filtered through the grain bed. I took the specific gravity and with heat correction it was 1.048, a little off the 1.060-1.070 that I wanted but thats ok. Yeast starter is almost done and going to be throwing that in shortly and sealing her up!! Now that iv got the process down the next run will be a lot easier. Thanks everyone for your help!

[skow69]

It just gets better from here.

Enjoy!

[aczesz]

I am on round 3 of this method, and I am getting the process pretty dialed. Been hitting a consistent 1.061 sg over 3 separate mash days. BeerSmith is telling me that my "Brew House" is at 88% efficiency. Getting about 10gal of wash liquid into the fermenter. The grain absorbs about 2gal of water.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Just my 2cents.

You should skip the sparge. Corn whiskey is traditionally fermented on the grain.
There are beta enzymes that will keep working on those star he's throughout the fermentation.

Plus sparging ground corn must be a royal PITA.

[still_stirrin]

...You should skip the sparge...There are beta enzymes that will keep working...throughout the fermentation...Plus sparging ground corn must be a royal PITA.

Yes but, squeezing good alcohol out of a soupy yeast cake is also a PITA. Pick your poison. YMMV.
ss

p.s.- I lauter all of my mashes too. Less mess to clean up at distillation (stripping) time.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

What's the difference between leaving alcohol in the post ferment corn cake and leaving fermentable sugar in the pre ferment corn cake? Either way, its a loss.
I'd imagine it takes a good bit of sparge water to get all the good stuff out of the corn, if it even lends itself to sparing well enough. Plus you don't get the benefit of having continued conversion throughout the ferment.

But you're right, squeezing grains is not a fun job and almost always results in needing a shower afterwards. Lol

[aczesz]

I would ferment on grain but my current fermenter isnt big enough. As for sparging the corn, its not actually that bad, takes about 15min of adding water then 45min-1hr of letting it sit there and drain unsupervised.

[MrKaos63]

After reading through this I am going to try a corn mash.

Basics learned front this thread
2lb grain per gallon of mash
Grain blend needs 25% malt to release amylase

Boil corn for about 90 min till gelatinous to release starch
Check ph and iodine test
Drop temp to 148 f add malt and hold temp for 2hrs
Cool to 85 f add nutriants
Pitch yeast

I am going to try a 5gal wash
7.5 lb cracked corn
2.5 lb rye malt
1/2 yeast bomb
1/2 cup yeast

Am close to dialed in.

[aczesz]

After reading through this I am going to try a corn mash.

Basics learned front this thread
2lb grain per gallon of mash
Grain blend needs 25% malt to release amylase

Boil corn for about 90 min till gelatinous to release starch
Check ph and iodine test
Drop temp to 148 f add malt and hold temp for 2hrs
Cool to 85 f add nutriants
Pitch yeast

I am going to try a 5gal wash
7.5 lb cracked corn
2.5 lb rye malt
1/2 yeast bomb
1/2 cup yeast

Am close to dialed in.

I would recommend putting the corn and water in the oven instead of on the stove and boiling it. I have tried to boil the corn on the stove before and you have to sit there and constantly stir it otherwise it will burn. The oven method is indirect heat so it will be much harder to burn. Keep it in the oven at 300*F until you start smelling corn then take it out and stir it to check on it. It should be an extra thick goop. I use 6gal of water for 15lb of corn in the pot and the corn will absorb all 6gal.

Are you sparging or fermenting on grain?

[still_stirrin]

Also, I'd add to mill the cracked corn finer if you can...down to a cornmeal grind if possible. Store-bought cracked corn is coarse and will be harder to mash than a cornmeal grind.
ss

[MrKaos63]

[quote="MrKaos63"]After reading through this I am going to try a corn mash.

Basics learned front this thread
2lb grain per gallon of mash
Grain blend needs 25% malt to release amylase

Bake corn at 300°f till gelatinous ie extra thick goop to release starch
Check ph and iodine test
Drop temp to 148 f add malt and hold temp for 2hrs
Cool to 85 f add nutriants
Pitch yeast

I am going to try a 5gal wash
7.5 lb cracked corn ground to a meal texture.
2.5 lb rye malt ground?
1/2 yeast bomb
1/2 cup yeast

When baking corn... 6gallon water to 15lb of corn

I see some folks strain thier mash. Is straining Sparging?
I think I want to ferment then strain or not strain at all.
Thanx aczesz and still_stirrin

[rgreen2002]

...This is the hammer mill that I bought https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010T7QGLK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I ferment and distill on the grain, so the flour isn't a problem.

Hey, Redwood... I've been eying that mill on Amazon for a while now. How do you like it?

[aczesz]

After reading through this I am going to try a corn mash.

Basics learned front this thread
2lb grain per gallon of mash
Grain blend needs 25% malt to release amylase

Bake corn at 300°f till gelatinous ie extra thick goop to release starch
Check ph and iodine test
Drop temp to 148 f add malt and hold temp for 2hrs
Cool to 85 f add nutriants
Pitch yeast

I am going to try a 5gal wash
7.5 lb cracked corn ground to a meal texture.
2.5 lb rye malt ground?
1/2 yeast bomb
1/2 cup yeast

When baking corn... 6gallon water to 15lb of corn

I see some folks strain thier mash. Is straining Sparging?
I think I want to ferment then strain or not strain at all.
Thanx aczesz and still_stirrin

Yea it is basically sparging. If your fermenter can handle the volume then ferment on the grain. I will have to say though if you grind the corn fine its going to be super hard to strain it. I use the rolled corn and it still takes a few hours to drain. Also my 19lbs of grain will soak up about 2gal of water that I cant get out of it. If you can get a big cheese cloth bag and put all the grain in it before you ferment so it is easier to squeeze the liquid out of it

[RedwoodHillBilly]

...This is the hammer mill that I bought https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010T7QGLK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I ferment and distill on the grain, so the flour isn't a problem.

Hey, Redwood... I've been eying that mill on Amazon for a while now. How do you like it?

Works good for me. One thing that I like is that I can put 25# of grain in it and just wait for it to be done. It's holding up ok for now, we'll have to see how it lasts. I've only put 600# through it so far.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Putting a pot of water in the oven over 212 degrees can have disastrous results.

It can flash boil and literally explode.