My infected Rum

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papapro
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by papapro »

Der Wo
Very interesting a lots of ideas to try, my first rum try was not that succesfull I will try your Ideas next
Yes I am a Novice with 40+ years of doing this hobby
distilling is like sex the slower the better and everyone is happy
fermenting is opposit to sex the faster the better
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by kiwi Bruce »

A quick little note to der wo, friend... you have made some great strides in bring our understanding far far forward on this subject...and for my part it's greatly appreciated ! Thank you for your effort !
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by johnnyv »

der wo wrote:I added per 10 liter low wines 2.5l infected dunder. Then 80ml sulphuric acid brought the pH down to 2.5. The two low wines with the good abv showed a massive rise of flavors.

The "old backset bucket" -low wines smell now incredible fruity, the same like before, but much stronger, too strong to enjoy. It's the only low wines identifiable as Rum IMO.

The "yoghurt" -low wines have changed, they developed a mild mango like and creamy enjoyable fruit flavor, much more different from the other low wines than before I added the dunder.

The low abv "soil" -low wines haven't change much, it's a sharp fruit flavor, more but not much more like before adding the dunder to the low wines. Probably too low abv for a stronger effect.

The flavors confirm clearly, that there is much control over the type of esters, even if we let live the dunder for a long time like 2.5 months, by infecting it with things, which contain the right bacterias. I wasn't sure, if the "yoghurt" dunder is really still dominated by lactic bacteria. But the result is 100% clear. And I am 90% sure, that I had active propionic bacteria in the "old backset bucket" -dunder. But to be sure would need a comparison of two dunders, one infected with a cheese with holes, the other with a similar cheese but without holes. Or simply buy propionic bacteria from cheese makers.

The spirit run will be challenging. How to make cuts when you distill a concentrate, which you probably want to blend in small amounts to different spirits?
Loving this thread!

As I have only made several batches of rum I am very interesting in what flavours you can get out of these experiments.
All my dunder has had some live yeast trub(by coincidence limited containers) and it all seems to go the same way, yeast ethanol production(smells boozy) followed by bacterial infection(smells bad) and then a change to sweet smelling(assume ester formation).
Most lower molecular weight carboxylic acids smell bad, butyric smells like vomit but esters smell sweet, ethyl butyrate smells like pineapple.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to add some more sugar to a dunder to allow a higher potential for alcohol->carboxylic->ester for concentrates.
Then dilute normal low wines before the spirit run or blend a dunder distillate separately.
After trying boiled dunder addition to a wash before ferment versus a strait wash plus aged dunder diluting the spirit run I am currently leaning towards keeping the wash as simple as possible and adding flavour via the spirit run dilution or potentially blending with a dunder essence.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Thank you kiwi Bruce.


jonny,
All my dunder has had some live yeast trub(by coincidence limited containers) and it all seems to go the same way, yeast ethanol production(smells boozy) followed by bacterial infection(smells bad) and then a change to sweet smelling(assume ester formation).
why do you have fermentable sugar in your dunder? I never had. Did you add sugar after stripping to the dunder? And I never had a sweet flavor in my dunder (except the molasses flavor), because I never had sugar and I never had alcohol there, so I never had esters in my dunders. All my esters were created when using the dunder in a wash or in low wines. When you add sugar to a dunder, wild yeast will create alcohol and vinegar bacterias will turn it into vinegar and esterification will create the glue smell.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to add some more sugar to a dunder to allow a higher potential for alcohol->carboxylic->ester for concentrates.
Adding sugar to dunder is a wash. That's what I did. There was enough sugar for 9-10% alcohol. But in one of the three cases the bacteria was stronger than my yeast and ruined the yield. It would have been better to boil the dunder to sterilize the bacteria and then add sugar and the yeast.
Then dilute normal low wines before the spirit run
You don't mean with water, right? You mean with dunder? Just in case, I never heard of one distillery diluting their low wines with water. Perhaps for vodka. But never for Whisky or Rum. Water cleans the taste. If you want much taste, don't dilute the low wines with water.

As simple as possible is to make a molasses wash. After stripping let the dunder live for a few months at not too low temps. Then add some of it to the low wines, add sulphuric acid, wait at least a day and then distill it.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

I just finish the spirit run. LM, 50cm packing. Heating up fast. Then before boiling 1h stirring with the agitator. Heating up again and reflux everything 15min. The temp was now around 0.5°C lower than ever (-> many foreshots). Collected fores and a few jars heads as usual. The smell was bubblegum fruity. Glue smell only at the very beginning. The temp rised to a normal level. Then I collected and tried out running the still at different temps/abvs. At 75% the smell was synthetical fruity without any molasses or other "deep" flavor. Then I diluted and tasted: It's absolutely ugly and bitter. I spit it out. Is this ethanol? I am not sure. Or does the nice smelling esters taste like this? I tried a higher abv (over 90%): The same. I first wanted to stop the run. But I decided to collect slow like heads around 1/3 of the alcohol and then look again, if there comes something useable. Then the smell was a bit more natural, but the taste still undrinkable bitter, but probably a bit better. I dumped the first 1/3 of the alcohol, but then collected some at over 90% just for fun, diluted it to around 60% and will add oak. And later again I collected a fraction, because it really got less bitter (if I can still trust my taste buds...). I now have two 1l-jars with barrel strength and oak, one with "middle distillate" and one with "late distillate".

Shit! I wasn't sure if it will turn out really great. But I was sure I can get something really interesting for blending. Generally I think this stuff is poisonous. Perhaps it will be interesting to blend something like 1-2% of this to a Rum or Whisky. But at the moment I think I never will use it.

I will think about all those experiments and then draw a conclusion the next days.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

Der Wo - Thanks for this. I love these updates! You may not have gotten the product you thought you were going to get, but you tried. And it will lead to a great tasting product.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by zapata »

Yes, thanks so much for sharing this work. Even if I have to share disappointment that the result is not immediately amazing. I'm holding out hope it will prove amazing either with some age or blending.

The biter flavors are surprising, perhaps it is just a concentration issue? I know from making my own vaporizer flavors that concentration has a huge effect on flavor, too much of some flavors is not just more flavor, but changes the perception entirely.

Perhaps a small serial dilution experiment would be useful? Mix a few ounces 50:50 with rum in one glass. Then mix some of the first mixture 50:50 with more rum (making a 25:75 mixture). With a few ounces and say 5 glasses you could readily sample at 50, 25, 12.5, 6.25, and 3.125 %. Personally I'd do it in baby food jars or small canning jars so they could be covered and allowed to rest for a few weeks if immediate nosing and tasting didnt prove positive. In the end you can even dump the samples back in with the rest of the run and lose nothing.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

My conclusions, or better, what were my mistakes:

1. Trying to start a dunder pit with undiluted all moll wash dunder. The SG is too high for a healthy bacterial activity. The dunder has to be diluted 50:50.

2. Using calcium carbonate for buffering the pH of the dunder. Calcium carbonate works fantastic for buffering mashes, which get distilled after a few days or two weeks. But for dunder it's possible that the carbonate at the bottom of the fermenter rises slowly the pH to a too high region, because here the acid production is much slower and a dunder has to work much longer than a mash/wash normally. And the high pH caused the rotten flesh smell probably.
So I think a mixture of calcium hydroxide (pH riser, not pH buffer) and sulphuric acid and control measurements every two weeks or so are the best way to keep the pH at around 5.5. Perhaps adding 1-2ml sulphuric acid per liter dunder. Then rising the pH with calcium hydroxide until you reach pH 5.5.

3. Trying to ferment unsterilized heavily infected pure dunder. A wash with 25% infected dunder and 75% water may work always without problems, but there is a limit. I broke the limit here. Don't be lazy like me. Sterilize the infections (bring them to a short boil), if you use them in large amounts in mashes/washes before or during the alcohol fermentation.

4. It was way too much esters what my pits produced. I have this extreme fruit flavor everywhere now. It will need a week to get this out of my nose. But why? Why I got much more esters at the last experiment, the Rum dunder sugarhead? Much more than with my infected Rum, Bourbon, backset sugarhead, peated Malt and draff sugarhead? After every experiment I thought it's not enough, I want much more. think only 10% because this time it was more infected and I fermented pure dunder without water. 90% is because of the use of sulphuric acid. It would be interesting to know how my other infected spirits would taste, if I had added sulphuric acid.
Either I should use less sulphuric acid or (probably better) less infected dunder.
Generally at least with sulphuric acid as catalyst we don't need much dunder. I would store 1/20 what remains in the still. 100l wash will result in 35l low wines and 65l dunder. 50:50 diluted we have 130l dunder. Probably to use for the 35l low wines 3.5l dunder is way enough. This is only 1/37 of the available dunder! Probably you don't want to use the sludge and the pellicle. But to store a bucket with more than 1/20 of the dunder is useless probably, at least if using sulphuric acid. I had much too large pits, which needed much place for a long time, filled the room with smell and were not easy to clean odorless again at the end.

5. The butyric esters dominated all other esters after the spirit run. Those get carried over most. It's good to have more than one dunder pit. As I wrote before, we have a really good control over the esters by adding the right ingredients. And then choose carefully: Mix 10ml dunder with 10ml alcohol and add 1 drop sulphuric acid, then you will smell the character of the esters.


We know (and smell) that yeast produces esters too. We don't need bacterial infections to get esters. But of course we can get more and different ones with bacterias. But does yeast really produce esters? Or does it produce acids, like bacterias, and then the esters are formed without the activity of the yeast? If yes, we could use sulphuric acid generally as "ester amplifier". For example adding uninfected dunder/backset but with sulphuric acid to low wines. Or adding sulphuric acid to a dry fermented wash one day before stripping.
Those are the experiments I would do next. But unfortunately I currently will need my time for other things.
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Re: My infected Rum

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der wo wrote:4. It was way too much esters what my pits produced. I have this extreme fruit flavor everywhere now. It will need a week to get this out of my nose.
I've given up on the idea of producing a single ferment dunder rum. I reckon the way to go is to make small batches of intensely flavored dunder rums to age, then include them when making up blends to bottle.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

that's exactly what I'm trying to get from my own experiment, I currently have 4 pits going and are less than 5 gal each.
1 each, potatoes, malted barley, Swiss cheese culture, and soil.
I've not documented mine as well as der wo but each has its own character. my work has me consumed at the moment but Im doing what I can as I can.

Thanks der wo for all this hard work for the rest of us to enjoy, I'm glad for the success and the failures can be worked again to get satisfactory results.

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Re: My infected Rum

Post by raketemensch »

Thanks Der Wo, and ShineOn, these threads have been really interesting, well thought-out, and will be the next frontier I move to. Gonna start a few 5-gallon dunder buckets at 4% alcohol, and try adding them to the boiler at distillation time.

That may not provide enough time for bonds and chains to form, but maybe I can produce some effect by heating up slowly.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

raketemensch wrote:Thanks Der Wo, and ShineOn, these threads have been really interesting, well thought-out, and will be the next frontier I move to. Gonna start a few 5-gallon dunder buckets at 4% alcohol, and try adding them to the boiler at distillation time.

That may not provide enough time for bonds and chains to form, but maybe I can produce some effect by heating up slowly.
As I wrote in the other thread, I don't understand this 4% thing. I don't understand why the esterification must happen in the dunder pit. Why not in the wash or low wines? Storing 4% alcohol open to atmosphere will lead to a vinegar infection and glue smell sooner or later. Maybe part of a good Rum, but I fear it will be too much.

Anyway, if you don't want to start a new thread about it, you are invited to post here about this.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

I did a lucky shoot at ebay:
DSC07840.JPG
Normally a bottle costs 100€ here. I got it for 2/3 of the price. Still much money. But first it's hopefully a good Rum and secondly I want to know how a such high ester and high quality Rum tastes like. Ok, this is not the highest ester Rum from Hampden, it has something like 2/3 of the maximum one.
6 years old, pure molasses, 100% potstill distillation (with thumpers), 67%abv, 375gr/laa esters (probably this means gramm per hectoliter pure alcohol), aged in the tropics with more than 40% angels' share, no sugar or coloring of course. And nada nothing empty words like "navy" btw...
I am curious, this is for me an inredible interesting tasting.

After the tasting I think first it's a great Rum, secondly I have learned something, thirdly it seems reachable, fourthly I won't pay so much money again when the bottle is empty.

The flavor: The infection flavor is a mix from butyric esters and acetic esters. Perhaps propionic esters too (but they are similar to butyric esters). No lactic esters. This is interesting, because it concurs with the Arroyo papers (he doesn't write anything about lactic esters) and it's different from the other (less or not infected) Rums I know, which have a lactic ester aroma IMO. Perhaps this means that an old dunder will be mainly a butyric acid dunder. The acetic acid is probably simply added to the wash (Arroyo describes sugar cane vinegar addition to washes), it's not the result of a dunder infection. I think it's important for a high ester Rum producer to find the balance between butyric and acetic acid esters. The butyric esters alone smell like bubblegum, the acetic esters alone like glue. But mixed (I don't write connected. I tastes simply mixed, not magically chemical bonded), if it is well balanced like the acid and the sweetness in a lemonade or like the sweet and the sour in Asian cuisine, you can taste there everything you want, banana, mango, pineapple... But it's an illusion. A pleasant illusion. Actually now I like the idea of the Pure acids and ester production thread a bit more. It seems very logical: The main acids in the high ester Rum production are butyric acid and acetic acid, and the main alcohol is ethanol. So the main esters are ethyl butyrate and ethyl acetate. This is what it smells like. And the mix is very complex and interpretable. The other esters, perhaps built from other acids or other alcohols or perhaps reactions of two esters or of an ester with the wood are not identifiable for me. They may play a small part. But actually it looks for me, that this is the secret of a complex high ester Rum. Simpler than I thought. But I know there are many reports about very complicated esters, which are allegedly indispensable for a good Rum. I don't trust them anymore. Or at least their value for practice is much lower for me now.
So I cannot decide if I am either satisfied, because it looks like I am not only on the right track, but I am almost there, or if I am dissapointed, because there is not really a new world opening for me with such a Rum for so much money.

The taste: The taste was not a real surprise for me. High quality of course. 40% angels' share have an effect too: It's smooth at a higher proof than I drink normally. And the molasses taste is intense without downsides like tails. For me the sweetness is enough. Definetely better quality than a Rum for half the money.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by raketemensch »

I recall that people buying the feed molasses were disappointed to discover that it has propionic acid in it — but it sounds like that might be a good thing?
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Re: My infected Rum

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I don't think the amount is such high, that it is smellable. Because propionic acid is similar to butyric acid and has a similar ugly smell. The esters you get after adding alcohol are only smellable if the acid was smellable before too. Does someone have feed molasses at home smelling like vomit or sweat? I don't think. And I don't think animals would eat it, if it smells ugly. So the amount of propionic acid has to be low or noone will buy the molasses.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

I use evolved habitat feed molasses and I think it smells good but bitter and not so tasty. Maybe a deer has a more sensitive pallet and that's why the love it but to me it's not very good alone.

As I mentioned in my thread I'm about finished with rum until next year but I have one more 45 gal ferment to make first. And ill age my dunder until then.

I plan to keep up with your threads and learn from them and keep on researching for the ultimate funk!

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Re: My infected Rum

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der wo, that bottle looks like a nice find. I wish I was your neighbor.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

from what I just read he uses a LM with 50 cm packing, I've been using my thumper in mine though.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by raketemensch »

Thanks. I’ve been trying to figure out how I should best run a rum here... I haven’t heard much about making rum with a flute, but I still have my 2” pot column. Just not enough patience for stripping/spirit runs.

I’ve been seriously considering building a thumper out of this second keg I have here, and maybe loading infected dunder into it...
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

Yes, 50cm, half copper scrubbies, half ss SPP. For example Whisky I reflux only a bit over barrel strength, brandy and fruit vapor infusions a little higher and pure molasses Rum at around 80%.

I see two theoretical problems with infected dunder in the thumper:
- The contact duration is short. I don't know if the alcohols and acids have enough time to react. But on the other hand it's very hot and high abv. I don't know.
- You have to decide before how much dunder you use. If you add the dunder to the low wines instead, you can start with a small amount and see how the flavor of the low wines develops. This will give you a hint how much dunder to use best.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

+1 on adding to low wines!

25% is what I used and the whole run had carryover, it's now on med toast oak for 6 months, (2.5gal)
1/2 gal on jd chips
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

25% is ok. Except you use sulphuric acid. Then 25% will be way too much.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

will not the sulphur carry over in distillation? Or is that why copper is good I the still?...
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

No. Sulphuric acid doesn't smell. And sulfur is an important yeast nutrient. Only if sulfides are build, we get a problem. Like hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs) or dimethyl sulfide (cooked vegetables). Then we need copper.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by Shine0n »

Seems I still have more reading to do. lol Thanks

So if I add the sulfuric acid I can reduce my dunder to low wines % because it brings out esters, makes them more noticeable?
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Re: My infected Rum

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Yes. It catalysts the reaction alcohol + acid => ester + water. Less ugly smelling acids, more good smelling esters.
But be careful. Because my last run failed I have not really a recipe with proven amounts for you. Perhaps 10l low wines, 1l infected dunder, 20ml sulphuric acid. Try it with small amounts.
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Re: My infected Rum

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Will do :thumbup:

Once I have all 4 infections ran I'm going to taste each to see which one I like best, then start blending each of them to it and try to compliment it.

I'll do that while they are white then age the blend in a once used Balcones whiskey barrel (5 gal)
and age the rest separately in glass.

I'll keep some white of course but I want the best of both worlds.

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Re: My infected Rum

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der wo wrote: And I don't think animals would eat it, if it smells ugly.
Don't kid yourself :lol: ...cows, sheep, and goats all love silage, which is fermented grass, (I think it's Gärfutter auf Deutsch... aber es ist 40 jahre sieht ich in Deutschland gewohnt harbe) It has so much butyric acid it would gag a maggot ! It stinks like vomit, I use to hate feeding this out to the animals when I was a kid still living at home.

You asked if yeast strains can create esters...(I looked for the quote and couldn't find it quickly)...but YES yeast can and does create esters, the whole Belgian beer industry is based on their yeast doing just this. I know from experience that stressing a beer yeast will also make it produce esters, example...if the tempurature is to high for the yeast type, it will produce esters, however I don't know if there is enough ester produced by yeast, to be detectable in a distillate. It may well need the boost from outside the fermenter to get a good flavor.
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Re: My infected Rum

Post by der wo »

kiwi Bruce wrote:Don't kid yourself :lol: ...cows, sheep, and goats all love silage, which is fermented grass, (I think it's Gärfutter auf Deutsch... aber es ist 40 jahre sieht ich in Deutschland gewohnt harbe) It has so much butyric acid it would gag a maggot ! It stinks like vomit, I use to hate feeding this out to the animals when I was a kid still living at home. Perhaps I have too romantic ideas of a farmers life. :lol:

You asked if yeast strains can create esters...(I looked for the quote and couldn't find it quickly)...but YES yeast can and does create esters, the whole Belgian beer industry is based on their yeast doing just this. I know from experience that stressing a beer yeast will also make it produce esters, example...if the tempurature is to high for the yeast type, it will produce esters, however I don't know if there is enough ester produced by yeast, to be detectable in a distillate. It may well need the boost from outside the fermenter to get a good flavor. We don't know if the yeast really produces esters or if it only produces acids like the bacterias. Esterification doesn't need the action of the yeast. It only needs alcohol and acid.
For example if someone drinks too much alcohol and during his last gulp he pukes in a bucket, there will be alcohol and acids in the bucket and they will form esters. What would you say, did he produce acids or esters?
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