First All grain Attempt

[Rain Distillate]

Just checked my 50lb grain bill of cooked cracked corn and enzymes and my refractometer is only showing 3%. A little lower than I would have liked however one of the enzymes i purchased was not the high temp enzyme i thought it was. Also had a slight scorching issue during the cook due to not having the hte, so I'm very nervous about final flavor profile. I will be grinding beyond "cracked" from now on. I hated cooking all that cracked corn. I stirred every 2 mins for hours and still scorched it. Checked ph today it was a 2.9!!!!!!! Very very low. No backset was used. I will be using a finer grind, steam, and a hte next time I attempt an AG bill. Sorry for any poor grammar/lack of other info, using my phone.
Rain

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Many, many successful corn mashes have been made without the assistance of high temp enzymes. They are for ease, but not required to make liquor.

You scorched due to the unconverted starches in the mash, shown by the low sg, as well. I know, because I just did the same thing this weekend. 2nd scorch ever, and I knew it was going to happen before I ever put my malt in. I didn't cook the corn well enough.

Finer crack will help the conversion, but poses its own risk for scorching. Have a damn fine squeezing and clearing protocol if you go too fine and don't use steam.

[ShineRunner]

To be clear, what do you mean by refractometer showed 3%? Does your refracto have a potential ABV scale? What was the actual gravity or brix?

Once fermentation starts, you can't use your refractometer to check your gravity. Well, you can, but have to use calculations and I've never really had success with it.

SR

[der wo]

50lbs is heavy for a first attempt.
While heating AG you have to stir without breaks with something like a brewers paddle, a long spoon with a flat end. When you need a break you have to shut down the flame. You need an insulation or you will loose heat during the break. Later while enzymes are working the heat should be off the whole time, because you need the same optimal temp within the whole pot. Here too insulation is the key.

[still_stirrin]

Rain,

These three guys have all given you great advice and comments. I can't really add much more to it other than to suggest you try to stay within the bounds of your compentency, that is, don't try to push yourself beyond your capability. Fifty pounds of corn is a "tall order" and if you don't have the right tools, it can be very disappointing (as you've found out).

I am not suggesting to not try to improve and increase your capabilities, just be prepared for them...read up so you understand the challenges and equip yourself with the necessary tools beforehand. Boldness is great, but unprepared boldness can be dangerous..."haste makes waste".

In summary, corn is a fantastic cereal grain. But, it is also more challenging to process than malted barley. And a balanced grainbill can produce an elegant yet full-flavored product.

Good luck as you progress.
ss

[Rain Distillate]

50lbs is heavy for a first attempt.
While heating AG you have to stir without breaks with something like a brewers paddle, a long spoon with a flat end. When you need a break you have to shut down the flame. You need an insulation or you will loose heat during the break. Later while enzymes are working the heat should be off the whole time, because you need the same optimal temp within the whole pot. Here too insulation is the key.

I did 3 s.s. pots on 3 propane burners at a time, breaking the bill into 2- 25 lb cooks. Total cook time was about 7 hrs of low and slow with stirring every 2 mins (literally every 2 mins, but you said with NO breaks) with a nice wooden brewers paddle. Once I could squish the corn in my fingers and only gel was left with no signs of strings/strands in the grain I shutdown insulated and let cool naturally until I hit 155 for my first enzyme addition. The second enzyme I used said to add at room temp which I added hours before pitching my yeast.

Checked gravity and ph days later. Even with a 2.9 ph my yeast was still active 4 days in. However I added/stirred in some baking soda to the mash to raise ph after I saw it was so low, a whole box got me from 2.9 to 3.9 lol.. besides the 1.0 rise all it did was rise up to the surface and create a funky layer. I skimmed most of it off already and still need to do one last skim before running it through the pump to the stills boiler. Now I'm worried about salty aftermath of the baking soda Ontop of the possible scorch flavor. I only plan on taking it like one more grind, don't want it to be too too fine. Og 1.020 FG .990. Not sure what to expect out of this. Hope it wasn't all for nothing. Not to much money maybe 30$ counting propane and the corn.... and the cleaning supplies for the scorched pot haha. Idk if I'll attempt this again anytime soon. I need hte and a much bigger pot. This has all been a bit discouraging.
Rain

[Rain Distillate]

Rain,

These three guys have all given you great advice and comments. I can't really add much more to it other than to suggest you try to stay within the bounds of your compentency, that is, don't try to push yourself beyond your capability. Fifty pounds of corn is a "tall order" and if you don't have the right tools, it can be very disappointing (as you've found out).

I am not suggesting to not try to improve and increase your capabilities, just be prepared for them...read up so you understand the challenges and equip yourself with the necessary tools beforehand. Boldness is great, but unprepared boldness can be dangerous..."haste makes waste".

In summary, corn is a fantastic cereal grain. But, it is also more challenging to process than malted barley. And a balanced grainbill can produce an elegant yet full-flavored product.

Good luck as you progress.
ss

I agree with everything you said. Thanks. I need to push away from all corn for sure. Balance balance balance

[Rain Distillate]

To be clear, what do you mean by refractometer showed 3%? Does your refracto have a potential ABV scale? What was the actual gravity or brix?

Once fermentation starts, you can't use your refractometer to check your gravity. Well, you can, but have to use calculations and I've never really had success with it.

SR

Thank you for the info. Good to know.

Og was 1.020
Refractometer currently shows 1.010 but hydrometer shows .990
Brix on refractometer currently says 3%. But like you said it's probably not an accurate/acceptable number to go by.
Thanks again
Rain

[Rain Distillate]

Would 50 lbs of rice be easier to convert/ferment out than 50lbs of corn? I can get 50lbs of rice fairly cheap.
Rain

[ShineRunner]

You said you checked gravity and ph several days later. Did you actually check for an OG before you added yeast? Is the 1.020 number from then or from days later?

Your hydrometer is accurate. Your refractometer is lying to you because you have alcohol present, which skews the numbers. A brix of 3 does not mean 3%. It's a measure of sugar content, just like gravity. A brix of 3 is roughly equal to your 1.010 number. But these are not accurate after fermentation starts. There are calculators to try to figure it out.

Either way, if you started at 1.020 and ended at .990, you're done and have roughly 4% beer there. Run it and enjoy what you get. There's a chance that your low temp enzymes converted some sugars and you've got more in there.

SR

[ShineRunner]

And don't be surprised if the scorch flavor doesn't go away. You may have to chalk this up to lessons learned and try to start on a much smaller scale next time

[der wo]

Total cook time was about 7 hrs of low and slow with stirring every 2 mins (literally every 2 mins, but you said with NO breaks) with a nice wooden brewers paddle. Before I built an agitator with a chain, I mashed many times with a brewers paddle. Way smaller batches than you. I had to scratch constantly the bottom of the pot with the flat end of the paddle. When you are doing this, you feel if it scorches. Once I could squish the corn in my fingers and only gel was left with no signs of strings/strands in the grain I shutdown insulated and let cool naturally until I hit 155 for my first enzyme addition. very low temp The second enzyme I used said to add at room temp really? not around 130F? which I added hours before pitching my yeast. Verify, if those temps are really optimal for your enzymes.

Checked gravity and ph days later. Even with a 2.9 ph very low. Sometimes I have a backset with this number. But not a mash/wash. my yeast was still active 4 days in. However I added/stirred in some baking soda to the mash to raise ph after I saw it was so low, a whole box got me from 2.9 to 3.9 lol.. Yes. It needs much. But anyway, I hope your pH meter or strips work well...
Og 1.020 FG .990. Both numbers are so incredible low. Does it measure 1.000 with water? Not sure what to expect out of this. Hope it wasn't all for nothing. Not to much money maybe 30$ counting propane and the corn.... and the cleaning supplies for the scorched pot haha. Idk if I'll attempt this again anytime soon. I need hte and a much bigger pot. with a bigger pot the stirring doesn't get easier. Think about electrical stirring. Either something slow with a chain at the bottom (like I have). Or something fast like in the videos about corn + enzymes you can find at youtube.

[still_stirrin]

...I added/stirred in some baking soda to the mash to raise ph after I saw it was so low, a whole box got me from 2.9 to 3.9 lol.. besides the 1.0 rise all it did was rise up to the surface and create a funky layer...Now I'm worried about salty aftermath of the baking soda...

Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is a very weak base, that is, not very effective to raise pH. Since pH is actually a logarithmic measurement of hydrogen ions (pH = -log{H+}), each point is 10 times more ionic concentrated than the next. So, each lower pH measure point requires 10 times more neutralizing hydrogen ions to raise the pH (neutral pH = 7.0).

A stronger base would be more effective. Calcium hydroxide (slaked lime or "pickling lime") would be much better to use to raise the pH. Plus, calcium is a good nutrient for the yeast for fermentation as well. You can typically find pickling lime in the grocery with the pickling and canning supplies.

A little goes a long way. Make a "gravy" with it, stirring a teaspoon of the lime into a cup of warm water. It won't want to mix easily, so stir it up and then gently pour it into the fermenter a little at a time. Don't splash and be careful not to get it on your skin...it is a strong base, although not as strong as sodium hydroxide (lye). Gently stir it into the ferment and wait a few minutes and then recheck the wash pH. Go a little at a time so you don't overshoot your target (pH 4.5 to 5.5).

Here's a graphic which may help understand this better:

[der wo]

A stronger base would be more effective. Calcium hydroxide (slaked lime or "pickling lime") would be much better to use to raise the pH. Plus, calcium is a good nutrient for the yeast for fermentation as well.

...+ it is tasteless. Sodium is salty. You don't need necessarily taste your wash. But in some cases it is useful. In my experience you will also need much of the calcium hydroxide. Like ss said, from pH 3 to pH 4 is a huge step.

Edit: For orientation, to rise 10l from pH4 to pH5 you will need something like 4 heaped tablespoons calcium hydroxide.

[Rain Distillate]

So much good information gents! Half expecting it to come out tasting like crap but the optimism in me is strong. Maybe, I just can't believe I spent all that time on something that was supposed to end up being the smoothest drink I've made yet, and ended up tasting like a bag of burnt popcorn lol. Maybe with luck I can reflux all the scorchness out of it, I don't know.. Be a shame to lose all the corn flavor but neutral is better than burnt popcorn. Should be running some of it tomorrow or Monday. Not sure if I'm going to strip it all first or just run it low and slow under reflux once.
Rain

[der wo]

In case the scorching story continues, you will be happy, if you had used the potstill... You see the smoke earlier and doesn't have to clean packing.
I don't know your setup, but with a potstill heated from the bottom I would heat it up fast but open while stirring/scratching with your paddle, then shut the heat down, close it and insulate everything.

[Rain Distillate]

In case the scorching story continues, you will be happy, if you had used the potstill... You see the smoke earlier and doesn't have to clean packing.
I don't know your setup, but with a potstill heated from the bottom I would heat it up fast but open while stirring/scratching with your paddle, then shut the heat down, close it and insulate everything.

Are you cooking in your stills boiler? Is that what your saying? I'm confused i guess.. I'm using a keg as my still boiler so agitation during heat up is not an option at the moment.
I don't understand the see smoke/clean packing part of what you said either. Sorry in advance for my confusion.

[Rain Distillate]

For clarification if there was any misleading information. I'm not worried about scorching during the distilling process. I always heat up very slowly. Usually about 1.5 -
2 hrs.

I'm worried that the small amount of corn that scorched to the bottom of the pots during cook/conversion will taint the batch. Time will tell.
Rain

[der wo]

Are you cooking in your stills boiler? Is that what your saying? I'm confused i guess.. I'm using a keg as my still boiler so agitation during heat up is not an option at the moment.
I don't understand the see smoke/clean packing part of what you said either. Sorry in advance for my confusion.

Yes I use the same pot for mashing and for distilling.
With a potstill you will realize earlier if you have a scorch. Cold smoke will come out of the condenser. With a column you will have to clean the packing after a scorch. That's why I recommend the potstill. But I don't know, perhaps you have already distilled a few grain sugarheads. Then you know how to handle the problems already.

[Rain Distillate]

I ran about 20 gallons of the AG yesterday. Very disappointed with the yield. After pulling fores and refluxin for 30 mins my temp was already stabalized at 184-185 degrees ferenheit opposed to the normal 174-180. The alcohol diminished very quickly too. Pulling tails after only collecting about a pint of what I consider "drinkable likker". Hopefully, like my last few washes, I'll be able to pull a bunch of good likker out of the tails. I've yet to have my official taste tester try the new AG likker but as far as me personally, I didn't taste any scorched flavors. For now it seems I dodged a bullet......Now to deal with the abv issue..

Rain

[Rain Distillate]

Did another run from that AG mash. I also tossed in one jar of tails from the previous run. My yield from the one run, was the same as the double run I did a couple of days ago. I can't believe how flavorful this stuff is.

I think I may try rice or potatoes next. Any suggestions?

[still_stirrin]

...I think I may try rice or potatoes next. Any suggestions?

Don't bother with potatoes. There isn't much starch in them and it can be a PITA to get out....like making mashed potatoes, you've got to cut them up and boil a while and then mash with malt (or liquid enzymes). But the sugar content is very low for the effort to extract what you may get. And unless you're a potato farmer, the cost to buy enough to amount to the effort will make your vodka expensive. There are better choices for fermentable materials than spuds.

And rice needs enzymes to convert to sugars. Plus, you must boil or steam them to gelatinize the starch before mashing. But rice is a more economical cereal grain and it does have adequate starch available to justify its usage. But you need to read the Recipe Development forum rice articles to understand how to use it.
ss

[Swedish Pride]

for rice you can just use the booners approach.
Tip boiling water on the grain and stir it up and add enzymes at the right temp/ ph.
Works a treat

[Rain Distillate]

Thanks for the tips. Any other tasty ideas that are worth while?

[Rain Distillate]

So bad news....
My taste tester dipped his finger in some 75abv and didn't taste really any scorchness but claims after watering it down to drinking proof the scorchness came through more. I would like a second opinion on it but haven't trusted too many folks with my secret hobby. So unfortunately today instead of reusing all that trub topped with a sugar head for my next run, I squeezed and dumped the grain to the birds. Chalked it up as lesson learned.

[Still Life]

So sorry for the loss. Been there. Done that.

[Rain Distillate]

So sorry for the loss. Been there. Done that.

Intresting story. My taste tester was informed of the scorch during the cook and complained of scorched tatse.

When I gave another tester a try without informing them of the scorch they said it was smooth and delicious. Plecibo is a strong thing I tell you.

Me personally I don't notice anything off. So I guess moral of the story, don't scorch/don't care what others think so much.

[skow69]

I need hte and a much bigger pot.

Maybe you don't need a much bigger pot as much as a smaller batch until you get some experience with the new process. There is nothing shameful about 5 and 10 gallon batches for recipe development.