Rum mash will not ferment

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heresjonnie1
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Rum mash will not ferment

Post by heresjonnie1 »

Hi everyone,l
I recently made a rum mash from the recipe from Clawhammer supply and it will not begin fermentation. the recipe consists of 80oz molasses, 6lbs of natural cane sugar and 4.5 gallons of water. I warmed the water to around 120 degrees, added the sugar nd molasses and mixed/aerated wit a drill with a paint mixer attached. I let it sit covered overnight and then made a yeast cake from regular Fleichmens yeast and added that to the mash. 24 hours late I had no fermentation, so I aerated again, covered and waited another day. Still no fermentation. So I made another yeast cake and tried again. Following day, nothing. I store my mashes in my outside shed, so I checked the temperature of my mash and it was 75 degrees, so I don't think temp is a problem. I've made this recipe a couple of times before without problems. Buckets were clean. When I added the yeast I did notice that it kind of fizzed. Is the sugar content too much for the yeast? I don't remember if I used distillers yeast when I made it last. Any suggestions?
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kiwi Bruce
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by kiwi Bruce »

It could be your yeast, it could be your SG, what was the SG ?(starting gravity) and what were you aiming for ? Did you hydrate the yeast in warm water for 15 minutes before you added it ? If it still isn't working you may have to take a trip to the store and get some fresh yeast or switch back to distiller yeast. How does it smell now, is it going funky ?
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by OtisT »

I agree with kiwi Bruce, sounds like bad yeast or indirectly maybe the pitch temp. I would be interested in knowing the temp you pitched at. You have plenty of sugar for the yeast to eat, but it would still be nice to know your SG and what the sugar level is now.
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heresjonnie1
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by heresjonnie1 »

Well, like I said in my original post, I made yeast cakes with warm water and sugar and they foamed up with no problem. Did not take a SG because there is more than enough sugar in the mash with 6lbs of sugar and 80oz of molasses, and the temp of the mash itself is 75 degrees, so its should be ok...
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Still Life
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Still Life »

This one is a real puzzler. Very similar to a rum I use all the time without fault.
It almost has to be dead yeast for whatever reason.
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Did your molasses have preservatives in it?
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Pikey »

3 teaspoones citric acid or the juice of 4 lemons + Yeast nutrient as it says on the packet.

:)
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kiwi Bruce
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by kiwi Bruce »

heresjonnie1 wrote: I made yeast cakes with warm water and sugar and they foamed up with no problem. Did not take a SG because there is more than enough sugar .
So your yeast was working before you pitched it...but stopped working once it was pitched. I take an SG to make sure I haven't done something dumb like doubling up on one of the ingredients. Very strange...Could it be the molasses ?
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Pikey »

kiwi Bruce wrote:......... I take an SG to make sure I haven't done something dumb like doubling up on one of the ingredients. Very strange...Could it be the molasses ?
It would very likely still start, but not ferment out if he had - although 14 lb sugar and 80 oz molasses my not perhaps.

I'm convinced it is short of either acid or nutrient - likely both !

[Edit - adding them both now will not harm the ouput in any way - If it doesn't work I'll be surprised but nothing lost :) ]
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by NZChris »

Not knowing the pH and OG don't matter when everything is going fine, but if you're in the shit, they do matter.
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Saltbush Bill »

What are you basing the fact that it is not fermenting on ? Lack of bubbles at the air airlock or some other thing.
Have you tasted it to see if its still sweet?
If it has stalled, too low temp would be my first concern. 75f is only 23c, to cool in my opinion for a rum wash ....bump it up to above 30c at least. 35c would be even better.
Last edited by Saltbush Bill on Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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kiwi Bruce
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by kiwi Bruce »

heresjonnie1 :- I'm not knocking Clawhammer's Rum recipe, but have you checked out Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipes...they just seem more "complete"...but that could just be me.

http://www.homedistiller.org/forum/view ... 14&t=39556" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Pikey »

Yes, he realised that a sugar wash needs both acid and nutrient too - didn't he ?
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Cu29er »

.

Seems like a pile of sugar and too little water. Probably a dark band at the bottom of the fermenter (molasses)?

Dip out some liquid and mix it with 4x more water and pitch yeast into that for a test. If that works then find more fermentation buckets to split into.

.
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Pikey »

Cu29er wrote:.

Seems like a pile of sugar and too little water. Probably a dark band at the bottom of the fermenter (molasses)?

Dip out some liquid and mix it with 4x more water and pitch yeast into that for a test. If that works then find more fermentation buckets to split into.

.
What particular theory sends you down that path ?

2lb sugar per US gallon is highish - will give you a dry / med-dry wine - so whaere are you comeing from here ? :? :?
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by shadylane »

Cu29er wrote:Seems like a pile of sugar and too little water
Definitely getting near the upper limit :lol:
Wonder how much nutrients or preservatives the molasses had?
Adding nutrients with a Pugi's yeast bomb---and diluting with a little water wouldn't hurt :wink:
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by The Baker »

cu29er said, "Seems like a pile of sugar and too little water.".

How sweet does it taste?

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Oldvine Zin
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Oldvine Zin »

heresjonnie1 wrote:Well, like I said in my original post, I made yeast cakes with warm water and sugar and they foamed up with no problem. Did not take a SG because there is more than enough sugar in the mash with 6lbs of sugar and 80oz of molasses, and the temp of the mash itself is 75 degrees, so its should be ok...
Funny that 99% of the posts about problematic ferments the posters failed to take SG readings :roll:

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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by NZChris »

Oldvine Zin wrote:Funny that 99% of the posts about problematic ferments the posters failed to take SG readings :roll:

OVZ
Funny that so many try to diagnose a problem without any useful info.
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by NZChris »

Well, not funny, really.
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

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NZChris wrote:Well, not funny, really.
True kind of sad

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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Shine0n »

A while back I did a rum where I added vitamin and all kinds of crap, one fella on the forum who is a well known rum maker told me all that stuff was useless as the molasses already had all the nutrients it needed.

If your using feed moll it will be somewhere around 43-47% sugar and if fancy it will be significantly higher.
6lbs sugar and 80 Oz of moll should have you below 10 lbs sugar for the wash. Pretty high but not gonna break the deal!
I'm thinking even if there is a preservative in your moll it would be fine when diluted with so much water, mine has a preservative and I haven't had an issue yet.

Your temp is quite low for bread yeast, so bring it up to 85-90°f this may jump start your yeasties or you may just have yeast that's no longer good.

Try adding a good pinch of Epsom salt and gently stir your wash to resuspend your yeast.
Hope it works out for ya,

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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Cu29er »

Pikey wrote:
Cu29er wrote:.

Seems like a pile of sugar and too little water. Probably a dark band at the bottom of the fermenter (molasses)?

Dip out some liquid and mix it with 4x more water and pitch yeast into that for a test. If that works then find more fermentation buckets to split into.

.
What particular theory sends you down that path ?

2lb sugar per US gallon is highish - will give you a dry / med-dry wine - so whaere are you comeing from here ? :? :?
Just years of beer making and keeping bees/honey. That is quite a lot of sugar, maybe ragged edge for weak yeast. Should it work? Likely, but if there is less water than '4.5' gallons estimate then the concentration goes up (hence the question about SG earlier) - and osmosis draws water out of the yeast cells. My quick google for what concentration of sugar does this to yeast didn't uncover a definitive value.... My point was to back off and try a lower concentration to sort out the yeast.

OP: If you are making this often, try to get a 'brick' of yeast from a restaurant supplier (such as Gordon Foods); I've found in bread making over the years those grocery store packet strips can be poor performers. The brick seems to stay viable if stored in the freezer re-sealed for up to two years and a lot less expensive on a per use basis. Elsewhere here I've seen to avoid 'turbo' so don't get that.

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heresjonnie1
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by heresjonnie1 »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:Did your molasses have preservatives in it?
No
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by heresjonnie1 »

Well everyone it was a temp problem. Put bucket out in the sun and within half an hour they were bubbling. Can I use tomato paste as a nutrient? Thanks for your help!!!
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by kiwi Bruce »

YAY heresjonnie1...and yes on the tomato paste... just questioning why if it's working ?
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Pikey »

Cu29er wrote:
Pikey wrote:
Cu29er wrote:.

Seems like a pile of sugar and too little water. Probably a dark band at the bottom of the fermenter (molasses)?

Dip out some liquid and mix it with 4x more water and pitch yeast into that for a test. If that works then find more fermentation buckets to split into.

.
What particular theory sends you down that path ?

2lb sugar per US gallon is highish - will give you a dry / med-dry wine - so whaere are you comeing from here ? :? :?
Just years of beer making and keeping bees/honey. That is quite a lot of sugar, maybe ragged edge for weak yeast. Should it work? Likely, but if there is less water than '4.5' gallons estimate then the concentration goes up (hence the question about SG earlier) - and osmosis draws water out of the yeast cells. My quick google for what concentration of sugar does this to yeast didn't uncover a definitive value.... My point was to back off and try a lower concentration to sort out the yeast..
I can perhaps help you a little there - When I started winemaking I was 15 and found my grandma's recipe for elderberry - it called for 3 1/4 lb sugar per gallon (Imperial) with yeast (bread was all she could get in those days) spread on a slice of dry toast and floated on the surface of the jam pan containing the must. It worked but was sweet and thickish - now an imperial gallon is 25% bigger than a US gallon, so we need to reduce the sugar by 20% to compare like with like. so 52 oz - 11 oz = 41 oz - say 2 1/2 lb in a US gallon, with bread yeast will still ferment. The only one I had which did not work called for 4lb in a gallon, so 64 oz - 13 =51 oz or 3lb 3 oz for a US gallon. I later found that facet of sugar dehydrating yeast, which you mention and realised this ferment had just too much sugar.

So in conclusion I would say 2 1/ lb sugar in US gallon will ferment using fresh bread yeast - No point tho' you're simply wasting sugar, Whilst 3lb 3 oz will not - The level you're thinking of lies somewhere between those 2 levels.

However, 2 1/4 lb in an imperial gallon ferments right out with a decent yeast (I had stopped using bread yeast by this time) so 36 oz - 7 = 29 or 1 lb 13 oz for US gallon.
However, to ferment right out takes more time than distillers like to use, so we generally use somewhat lower amounts of sugar, so as to ferment right out.

Hope that helps

:)
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Well well well , what a surprise, after all those complex issues that it could have been like PH :crazy: It was something as simple as temp.
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by Pikey »

Yup - you called it SB 8)

IN honesty I don't have any yeast which would struggle with 75 F - 23 C - in fact that's exactly where I set my wash heaters in winter. :lol:
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Re: Rum mash will not ferment

Post by heresjonnie1 »

kiwi Bruce wrote:YAY heresjonnie1...and yes on the tomato paste... just questioning why if it's working ?
Just in case I need to in the future.
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