Jimbo's AG - Puke smell

[jonnys_spirit]

Hi All, I started Jimbo's AG following the directions. 10gal 160F water added to 20# 2row malted barley... Sit for 2h. SG=1.036 so I'm happy and let it cool and pitch yeast (ale yeast)... Goes gangbusters for a couple days then I check it out to my horror find the puke smell... Very strong... It's down to just above 1.000 or so... I was planning to put the wort into a carboy for clearing then running it this weekend (Tue now)....

I'm going to keep this for a couple more days and considering moving it into a carboy... Maybe I can use it -?? Not sure... Did a ton of reading and research on this and it looks like I should just chuck it and move on...

I was very excited that the recipe was so simple but would like to modify my approach appropriately

My concerns

- Cleaning and sterilizing the fermenters now. Two 20gal brutes...
- My next AG run. I want to prevent this infection. I see a lot of folks saying that AG makers throughout history did not boil after mashing and no infection... I just want to set up for being able to do some AG reliably. I did not use a wort chiller and I fermented on the grain...
- Infecting on purpose is different - I can see doing this in a controlled environment for flavor.

Thanks for any pointers or tips!
-j

[der wo]

1.036 is good? Looking at your OG, FG and mashing procedure, I think your hydrometer measures too low. Did you once drop it into water? But the difference measurement will be ok probably. You have 4-4.5% now. It's low. I normally get the 9-10% with Malt Whisky. Yes, perhaps I use a bit more grains than you. You choosed the most simple procedure and got a mediocre result.
But you should strip it. Probably the smell goes away.

[rgreen2002]

...But you should strip it. Probably the smell goes away.

Agreed...
Don't waste it...strip it. Early infections can frequently have temporary smells to them due to ester formations. If the smell persists after the strip... then use it as window cleaner and move on!

[jonnys_spirit]

Hmm... 2#/gal should get higher than 1.036? Ok cool that's good news! I also used some amylase to help it out so expected mostly full conversion..

I'm going to keep it and clear it - I don't particularly want that smell in my still though.

Thanks for the info and cheers!

-j

[NZChris]

Don't strip it on until the puke smell changes to more like pineapple.

[der wo]

Don't strip it on until the puke smell changes to more like pineapple.

I don't agree. If he waits longer, the puke smell will grow perhaps. 4% alcohol is not enough for a good esterification. Some of the puke smell will form esters during the stripping because of the heat and get carried over partially. If also some puke smell gets carried over (probably mainly at the second half of the stripping), the chance that it gets esterified in the low wines container or during the spirit run is way higher than at the moment.
And he opened the fermenter to measure the FG, he wants to rack off and let clear, he gives us the information dropwise (why he didn't mention the amylase in the first post?), I think, the chance is high he will get a vinegar infection soon.

If the puke smell is really an infection, the effects of it (good or bad) won't get lower with time but higher.

[Kruger1801]

Hi All, I started Jimbo's AG following the directions. 10gal 160F water added to 20# 2row malted barley... Sit for 2h. SG=1.036 so I'm happy and let it cool and pitch yeast (ale yeast)... Goes gangbusters for a couple days then I check it out to my horror find the puke smell... Very strong... It's down to just above 1.000 or so... I was planning to put the wort into a carboy for clearing then running it this weekend (Tue now)....

I'm going to keep this for a couple more days and considering moving it into a carboy... Maybe I can use it -?? Not sure... Did a ton of reading and research on this and it looks like I should just chuck it and move on...

I was very excited that the recipe was so simple but would like to modify my approach appropriately

My concerns

- Cleaning and sterilizing the fermenters now. Two 20gal brutes...
- My next AG run. I want to prevent this infection. I see a lot of folks saying that AG makers throughout history did not boil after mashing and no infection... I just want to set up for being able to do some AG reliably. I did not use a wort chiller and I fermented on the grain...
- Infecting on purpose is different - I can see doing this in a controlled environment for flavor.

Thanks for any pointers or tips!
-j

Hi!

I just posted a similar issue earlier today. Stumbled upon your thread by accident while searching for 'cleaning'...

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=67375

I stripped the wash and found some of the puke smell & taste coming through into the low wines. Will do a spirit run and let you know what it tastes...

I initially thought I had some kind of bacterial infection, but not the case - at least nothing I could see in the fermenters. I've started a second fermentation of the recipe, and made sure everything is sanitized correctly, however the smell is still there but a little less pronounced.

I would also be very interested to hear any insights.

Cheers!

[jonnys_spirit]

Thanks guys. This afternoon the smell has maybe faded a bit. Not sure why they did not convert fully. Watching your thread too Krueger and I am planning to run this recipe or similar a number of times too

I've got two 20gal brutes going on this run. One has an english crisp 2row (20#, 10gal) and the other has a munich 2row (20#, 10gal). The English malt has a much stronger vomit smell at this point. The Munich has the vomit smell very far underneath the malt smell so that one is probably fine right now..

I made a 5gal bucket lauter tun with a bunch of holes so I'm going to rack into carboys and run it through the lauter tun to remove some spent grain and start clearing and degassing. These were almost done with AF this morning so I'll recheck SG again too.

Once ferment was complete I was also planning to potentially adding some acid blend or something to drop ph and prevent against infection. When I make wines they are usually in the 3.3-3.7pH range which helps protect them along with the alcohol and I don't mind adjusting pH earlier but I feel like the enzymes need a higher pH so timing may be a factor.

If this converts to a pineapple smell then that would be pretty cool from where it's at right now.

I'll definitely keep going forward though and plan to run it this weekend in about four days so thanks all for the help.

Cheers!
-j

[HDNB]

Heed NZC's advise. the puke does carry over and at 3 years on wood it has morphed into a cool whiskey that i use for blending hints of it, but i can still detect the puke. about 1 oz per gallon makes an interesting blend.
i have not had it since that one but if i get it again i'll leave it for some time in the fermenter to see if it cleans up.

[shadylane]

Hi All, I started Jimbo's AG following the directions. 10gal 160F water added to 20# 2row malted barley... Sit for 2h. SG=1.036 so I'm happy and let it cool and pitch yeast (ale yeast)... Goes gangbusters for a couple days then I check it out to my horror find the puke smell... Very strong... It's down to just above 1.000 or so..

Sounds like it's done fermenting, run it as soon as practical.
Run it again, If your not happy with the flavor

[HDNB]

Hi All, I started Jimbo's AG following the directions. 10gal 160F water added to 20# 2row malted barley... Sit for 2h. SG=1.036 so I'm happy and let it cool and pitch yeast (ale yeast)... Goes gangbusters for a couple days then I check it out to my horror find the puke smell... Very strong... It's down to just above 1.000 or so..

Sounds like it's done fermenting, run it as soon as practical.
Run it again, If your not happy with the flavor

i double distilled the first puke one i got. it carries over twice. i dumped it before trying more times. my second puke one is the blending one that's been on wood 3 years or so.

mind you this was the real puke one, gag when you walk in the room type, not the pleasant baby milk burp smell from a lacto.

[Shine0n]

although I'm not working with ag I am doing infections and the one I did with a potato in dunder did smell of vomit, once it was mixed with the low wines it produced a pineapple sorta aroma which carried over through distillation. May not be the case for ag and it hasn't happened to me, maybe the grains were rancid before fermentation. not saying that's the case but it is possible.

my AG ferments always have a funky smell but still into a great spirit.

give it a go and if it doesn't turn out like you want you can always redistill!

good luck,
Shine0n

[masonsjax]

Bacteria doesn't always leave evidence that is visible to the naked eye. Puke smell is butyric acid and definitely the result of bacterial infection. Esterification to pineapple aromas can be accelerated by some strains of brettanomyces. I would pitch in a Brett blend like East Coast Yeast Dirty Dozen and let it ride in a carboy for a while before stripping. If it's really strong puke smell, either run it for non drinking product or dump it out. Either way, get a new batch going.

[der wo]

Once ferment was complete I was also planning to potentially adding some acid blend or something to drop ph and prevent against infection. When I make wines they are usually in the 3.3-3.7pH range which helps protect them along with the alcohol and I don't mind adjusting pH earlier but I feel like the enzymes need a higher pH so timing may be a factor.

Use sulphuric acid. It helps not only against infections, it helps also esterification. 1ml per liter wash. If you don't find concentrated sulphuric acid, you can buy car battery acid, it's 30% normally.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Ok, flag on the play, car battery acid??? Sweet Jesus, it's just not that complicated.

I've gotten some type of "infection" on fermentations, occasionally, for the whole 3 years I've been distilling.
I never threw one out, I never added anything to enhance or counteract the process, I just let it roll and distilled it.

Though some might have had a vaugely funky background flavor when young, they all grew up to be darn good whiskeys.

There are lots of descriptors for the off smells or tastes in a fermentation. I believe I've had the baby puke and vomit, never the chase you out of the house dead body shit smell. That I would maybe just dump.

I think mine are usually what is referred to on here as "lacto" infections. They never wrecked any of my drinks, in fact I believe the whiskey was better for it.

Only way I can think to sanitize your process is to lautering your wort, boil it, and cool it quickly with a chiller. That's just too much time and energy for me, consistency just isn't that high on my list.

[jonnys_spirit]

I racked into four carboys under airlock last night and used a biab and my bucket w/a million 1/16" holes. Forgot to take an SG but it has positive pressure in the carboys. Not much bubble activity now. The smell has improved and I reckon and hope that this is maybe progressing towards the baby-burp type of smell...

If I get off early enough today I'll start stripping it tonight. Other wise it'll wait till Saturday (three days) and I'll play my hand as dealt this round.

Reading up on some more mashing research and I guess I probably didn't let it sit in the "148F" water long enough for full conversion. Guess I'll just have to get some more malt and start another batch.

I also see notes about distilling on/off lees. I'll try this round with on the lees and pick up a wood mash paddle (2x4) cut down and shaped up. With my 13gal boiler I guess I'll aim for a full 10 gallons of wort per strip-run and I can probably run three of those ferments at once now and strip them all in a day... I'll practice and study to get my mashing chops up to scratch and better conversion.

Cheers and thanks!
-j

[still_stirrin]

One thing to keep in mind jonny & Kruger is that if your environment is not "friendly" to brewing, then your processes must compensate for it. If where you brew (and ferment) is a haven for airborne bacteria, then you need to control the environment to reduce the likelihood for the contaminants to attack your ferments.

Lautering and boiling the wort would be helpful. But boiling also eliminates any dissolved oxygen in the sweet liquor. So, you must oxygenate prior to pitching yeast. And fermenting in a closed fermenter would also be adviseable, for example, use glass carboys for fermentation vessels. Glass is easy to sanitize and observe the fermentation processes. Also, you should properly manage fermentation temperatures so the yeast can start and remain viable through the process.

If you've experienced recurring bacterial contaminations, then it is time to pay attention to your processes and equipment, as well as the brewing and fermentation location. Unless you are experienced with bacterial fermentation, it can be the scourge of the brewhouse. And you may have difficulty to be successful in this hobby....unless you're just lucky.
ss

[NZChris]

Don't strip it to suit your timetable. Wait until it smells nice.

[HDNB]

One thing to keep in mind jonny & Kruger is that if your environment is not "friendly" to brewing, then your processes must compensate for it.

The only time i've had the

chase you out of the house dead body shit smell

was on this (Jimbo's all malt) recipe, so it's not necessarily the environment...i'm supposing it came in on non pasteurized malt

and yeah, it smelled that bad. made my septic output smell worse. by a long shot.

[jonnys_spirit]

Stripping one 10gallon batch tonight. We'll see what comes out for low wines but I'll be working to get the conversion up. This is not making much output.

I don't think it's the environment either. I have made a ton of wines here without issue.

I'm stripping the one tonight that didn't have the smell.

It is getting better btw.

Good learning experience.

Cheers!
J

[HDNB]

when i asked Jimbo at the time, i recall his advise was to cool it quickly when starch is converted and pitch a big, pre started, healthy colony.

[bilgriss]

A big pitch and fast ferment will definitely kick aside most bacteria. It will have a small but minimal flavor impact as well, reducing esters.

[jonnys_spirit]

The suspect batch was smelling better as of yesterday. Not 100% but moving in that direction so sounds like we're all gucci... If all good and sweet pineapple tomorrow I will start running it in the morning... Probably add low wines from batch#1 into the wort and strip it all together again... Had a little bit of puking on the first run so would like to clean that up... On the first batch I ran the low wines down to about 5-10% or so and got about 2.5gal.

I apologize - I mis reported my initial SG too. It was 1.046 not 1.036 - Still not 1.07 and I will work on the conversion. Have been researching tons of AG mash threads and certainly feel better about the whole process now.

Thanks for all the help and I will raise my glass full of grappa to you good folks tonight.

Cheers,
j

[jonnys_spirit]

Just want to close this out and a big thank you to all who contributed advice.

I ran the spirit run yesterday morning and blended my cuts last night. Got about 1.5gallon of 132pF AG malt. It tastes nice and malty. Threw five 1/2" x 1/2" x 5" oak pieces toasted at 400F for 4h (charred on one side) into the gallon jug and 3x sticks into the 1/2 gallon jug...

I have a corn liquor jug oaking now and did some shots mixed 50/50 with the corn and malt liquors (watered down of course) and this stuff tastes great. Very happy and will be doing this again with the infections being welcome after reading up and researching more.

Cheers!
-j

[Truckinbutch]

I love to hear that a plan came together .