Ideas for a stalled ferment

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
jon1163
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by jon1163 »

Looking for some help on what I think is a stalled ferment and some ideas on how/if I can repair it.

The recipe: 7 gallon wash
2 row - 19.6 lbs
Flaked corn - 2.8 lbs
Rye - 1.4 lbs
Sucrose - 4.2 lbs

Should start me with an SG of 1.117 and finalize at 1.029

I steeped 7 gallons of wash through the mashtun for 90 minutes at about 155-160 degrees. This yielded me just under 5 gallons of fermentable wash after the grains were tossed. I pitched at 80 degrees using 2 packets, 5 grams each, of red star premier cuvée active dry wine yeast.

Day 1: I had bubbling air lock within hours which continued for a few days then stopped. 80 degree wash
Day 4: no bubbling and no noise. 74 degree wash
Day 4: mixed another packet of same yeast with 1/4 cup water and a tsp sugar at 110 degrees. When it doubled in size I poured it into my mash to try to restart it and stirred. I had bubbling airlock in a few hours. 74 degrees.
Day 5: no bubbling. I checked SG and it was about 1.06. The beer smells good and tastes like sweet beer. 72 degrees.

it's my first time using anything but turbo yeast. Any ideas or advice?
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Pikey »

jon1163 wrote:
....Should start me with an SG of 1.117 and finalize at 1.029..........
Taht's very precise - how you Calculating that ?

Did you use any malt at all ? or any enzymes ?

[Edit - when you say "2 Row" - do you mean barley malt ? - if so I thnk you've cooked it too hot and now you've fermented all the sugar ]

I don't know if adding enzymes at this stage would help - we need one of our AG boys to see if we can do anything about that - If not we may need to add more sugar and ferment it out as a sugarhead. does seem awful "Thick" though at 1.060
Last edited by Pikey on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jon1163
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by jon1163 »

I use brewtoad.com for the calculations. The 2 row has the enzymes I thought
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Pikey »

Looks like you posted as I was editing :)

Where did you get the cooking temperaturres from ?
User avatar
MichiganCornhusker
retired
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:24 am

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Way too much sugar/gal water.
Way too high mash temps.
Wine yeast?
Bubblers not reliable indicators. Small leak in fermenter will make 'em stop.

I'd add another 7 gallons of water.

Looks like you're after a rye'd bourbon, try this, subbing rye malt for the wheat:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=39617

Lots to be learned in that recipe to improve your approach.
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Pikey »

HAd a look at that site - all the ferments seem to end way over 1.000. That is fine for beers, but Not for whiskey. We aim to convert ALL the starch to fermentable sugars, by using lower tempertures.

Did the recipe itself come from that site ? not usual to add sucrose into a mash witghn that much grain in it.

MAshing Temperature seems to be where your problem lies and IMO only additional sucrose will enable you to boost alcohol production.

No doubt someone will be along shortly to say "PH" but imo, for a 7 gallon (US) wash you would want around 12 lb sugar total, to get a decent alcohol level and just use the grain for flavour.

Wait for a few other opinions first, but I think that's where we shall end up.
seamusm53
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:35 am

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by seamusm53 »

Pikey wrote:
jon1163 wrote: [Edit - when you say "2 Row" - do you mean barley malt ? - if so I think you've cooked it too hot and now you've fermented all the sugar ]
Agree. 160 will somewhat denature the malt amylase.

You'll still have grain flavor but no where near the alcohol yield.

Which I think is why the FG is high.
RedwoodHillBilly

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Pikey wrote: No doubt someone will be along shortly to say "PH" but imo, for a 7 gallon (US) wash you would want around 12 lb sugar total, to get a decent alcohol level and just use the grain for flavour.

Wait for a few other opinions first, but I think that's where we shall end up.
The original recipe sounds like an all malt with a bit corn to lighten it up and some rye for flavor. I'll assume that the rye is flaked as well. We'll ignore the sugar.

I don't understand why you would recommend doing a sugerhead on a grain bill of over 80% malted barley. Waste of malt and sugar.

For a 7 gal mash in the original ratio of 14:2:1 (malt barley:corn:rye, ignoring the sugar) and ~2 lbs / gal, the recipe would be 11.53 lbs 2 row, 1.65 lbs corn, and 0.82 lbs rye. I would probably make it 11.5# 2 row, 1.5# corn and #1 rye.

If you have your water at a strike temp of 155°F then just add all of the grains and you should be in a reasonable mashing temp, then just wait for the temp to drop to pitching temp. Also, make life easier and just use bread yeast.
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by still_stirrin »

jon1163 wrote:...I steeped 7 gallons of wash through the mashtun for 90 minutes at about 155-160 degrees....Any ideas or advice?
"Do over".

Mash temperatures too high, even for a beer. You'll get a mouthful of dextrins (unfermentable sugars). And as temperatures rise above 160*F for a short period of time, it denatures the enzymes in the malt all together.

Next time, strike water at 150*F and mash at 145-148*F and no higher. You want all the sugars to be fermentable.

Oh, and reduce the grainbill to 2.0-2.25 lb/gallon (or increase mash water volume to 8 gallons). And eliminate the table sugar. Your target OG should be 1.080-1.083 (10.3-10.7%ABV potential).

There is a very good read for mashing grains hot linked in my signature. "Click it" and learn...
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
User avatar
jon1163
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by jon1163 »

Thanks everyone. That'll get me set up with Enough reading for a long while. I'll be sure to post what I come up with and
What happens
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Pikey »

No Jon - you can't just wander off - we need to get to the bottom of this and salvage what we can from the situation - that's part of the bargain - we now own it ! :lol:
Shine0n
Distiller
Posts: 2488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:00 am
Location: Eastern Virginia

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Shine0n »

That's alot of grain for a 7 gal wash, and I'm sure with so much grain that ph isn't the issue,

Seems you didn't follow any type of mashing protocols, had you just used your grains without sugar you could've dropped them in at 148f and covered, checked the potential abv once you hit yeast pitching time.

Not sure why you used a wine yeast because good ole bakers would've done the job.

I think you should split the wash and add a couple lbs of sugar to finish with something, more than likely you only fermented the added sugar to begin with not the grains sugars you more than likely never gotten anyway.

good luck,
Shine0n
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Pikey »

Shine0n wrote:That's alot of grain for a 7 gal wash, and I'm sure with so much grain that ph isn't the issue,

Seems you didn't follow any type of mashing protocols, had you just used your grains without sugar you could've dropped them in at 148f and covered, checked the potential abv once you hit yeast pitching time.

Not sure why you used a wine yeast because good ole bakers would've done the job.

I think you should split the wash and add a couple lbs of sugar to finish with something, more than likely you only fermented the added sugar to begin with not the grains sugars you more than likely never gotten anyway.

good luck,
Shine0n
I agree and disagree S0 - Split the wash to detune the flavour, make it up to 14 gallons us - but add 20 lb table sugar to give it some alcohol - make it wot=rth the electric :tired:
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by still_stirrin »

So, Pikey and Shineon both suggest splitting the ferment, adding water and more sugar. I believe there is a better solution.

Why not add enough water to bring the OG down (1 to 1-1/2 gallons) and add active enzymes to convert the dextrins to fermentables? This can be accomplished with liquid enzymes or even more malt. Beta amylase enzymes will work to reduce the glucose chains even in the fermenter, if not denatured, albeit slower at fermentation temperatures.

It is another opportunity to "salvage" a rookie attempt with all grain brewing.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Pikey »

still_stirrin wrote:So, Pikey and Shineon both suggest splitting the ferment, adding water and more sugar. I believe there is a better solution.

Why not add enough water to bring the OG down (1 to 1-1/2 gallons) and add active enzymes to convert the dextrins to fermentables? This can be accomplished with liquid enzymes or even more malt. Beta amylase enzymes will work to reduce the glucose chains even in the fermenter, if not denatured, albeit slower at fermentation temperatures.

It is another opportunity to "salvage" a rookie attempt with all grain brewing.
ss
THat's real 'A' Level stuff - Far away from "Novice distiller" or even swill maker - please do educate us :D
User avatar
jon1163
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by jon1163 »

Okay. I have a hookup, and can get grain for basically nothing. I think I'm going to run this tomorrow and see what comes out mostly just to learn from it. I talked the mash tonight. Tasting the mash I'm betting that I get a poor tasting product and not much of it. The mash is good enough to drink on its own. I have the product ordered to try Jimbo's easy half barrel. I can always just use this as low wines I guess right?
Shine0n
Distiller
Posts: 2488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:00 am
Location: Eastern Virginia

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by Shine0n »

you can! I'd keep a good jar for sipping too.

run the low wines down to 10-15% to extract everything you can plus it will have a plenty of flavors. the yield will be low but it may have a great taste, you won't know until you run it.

SS, he tossed the grains after the mash. if he were to heat the liquid up to 150 then add malt he could do it that way right? as there is nothing to get from what he has now?

it's a rookie mistake and I'm sure it's a lesson learned, most of us had made them and some of us has learned to not do it again.

good luck,
Shine0n
User avatar
jon1163
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Ideas for a stalled ferment

Post by jon1163 »

So I read what eveyone posted...thank you for the advice. I went with "do over" but ran the mash through a column to learn and salvage what little alc. I could. I have a pretty good feel for my still now and can only say that this felt like pushing a rock uphill. It was actual work getting just two small jars of product! :thumbdown: the finish wasn't bad though and a good way to learn from a mistake. I'm set up for trying jimbos easy mash and sugar head next so thank you for that.
Post Reply