Another person with Corn Trouble.

[BourbonJim]

Thanks in advance. I have learned a lot from this site but I have a ways to
go.

In my attempt to make a bourbon I have hit a wall. I can't seem to get the
corn to convert.

My background
I am an avid beer brewer. I have made several acceptable wines including a
Blueberry merlot that i am very proud of.

I have completed several fermentations with grain and sugar and want to
step it up to all grain. I have completed four all grain attempts but the
yield has been horrible. Most recently, I had a 10 gallon mash that yielded
1 l of 160. Little on either end. That 160 was better than anything I have
ever purchased. I did the tasters taste test with a friend and he preferred
it over Crown XO, his favorite. I run a liquid managed reflux tower. I can
make and run up to 13 gallons of mash.

My process
9 lbs of corn in 8 gallons of water and one gallon of backset in the oven
at 250 overnight. It turns to goo. Nearly impossible to stir. Last time I
added 0.5 lbs of malted barley crushed and it was better.
PH tested digitally and adjusted to 5.2 and cooled to 155 degrees F
I add 2.0 lbs each malted eye and barley. Stir and it cools to 145 f
All this goes into my mash tun with a false bottom used for beer. I let it
sit for 24h.

It gets better but only marginally. I have never gotten a clear liquid. I
have no idea what the SG is bc I can't check it.
Usually I add amalayse to get something out of it. Adjust the PH again to
within tolerance of the yeast. Usually 5.2. Pitch yeast. Usually safeale
05.

It usually ferments for a couple of days then slows and stops. I run it two
weeks later.

I crush all the grains in my mill much finder than I do for beer. The malt
is the same is use for beer and it's good. Gelatinizing in the oven is
really easy. But I don't see that a lot on here. Is that my problem? If
not, I'm clueless.

[HDNB]

13 lbs in 8 gallons is pretty light. what are you getting like 3-4% ?

i'd be using over 20lbs in 8 gallons myself. no idea why it doesn't go liquid though, it should with that grain/water ratio.

[BourbonJim]

I knew it was low but didn't bother calculating it. 4% is pitiful. I get 75% brew house efficiency with my beer.

[still_stirrin]

Total liquid volume is 9 gallons (initially) with 8 gallons of water + 1 gallon of backset (with only 13.5 lb. of grains). When you chuck this into the oven at 250*F overnight, don't you think that a lot of the liquid will boil off in the oven?

Of course, as the grain gelatinizes it will get soupy, or even pastey, that's to be expected. I think you're way too high with the gelatinization temperatures...try 190*F instead. First off, it won't boil all the liquids away. And it will still gelatinize the corn. Also, get some high temperature enzymes to help liquify the soup/corn meal dough as it gelatinizes over night.

When you cool it down to add the malts, cool it a little farther...down to 148-150*F. You're trying to get the starches all converted to fermentable sugars, not dextrinous sugars like you do when making beer. So, bring the mash temperatures down.

And come on man, you're a beer brewer....use your hydrometer to check (and record) the OG and FG. I believe if you would (and shared with us what the OG was), you would see that you are not getting very good starch conversion in your mash process. And as stated above, the reason is the temperatures you're resting and/or holding at.

Bottom line here....pick a Tried & True recipe to begin and follow it closely. Doing so will baseline processes and make it easier for us to troubleshoot your anomaly.

Also, as a hint...for high corn ratios in recipes...use at least 2 lb./gallon of mash water, preferably 2.25 or even 2.5 lb./gallon (at least until you know full well what your brewery efficiency is). Right now, it sounds like you are not very efficient at extracting the goodness...good thing it's not your only business, because you'd be losing money, or eating a lot of beans for dinner.
ss

[Truckinbutch]

Grind your grains to a nearly flour consistency . Set up a cook pot with a paddle mixer and an external heat source . Bring the raw grains up to 190 degrees and hold while constantly mixing for 1 1/2 to 2 hours . Cool to 150 and add malt . Hold at 150 while mixing for 1 1/2 hours . Or use liquid enzymes per instructions .
You are making a whiskey mash , not beer .
2# to the gallon is a good rule of thumb for a mash .

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Grind your grains to a nearly flour consistency . Set up a cook pot with a paddle mixer and an external heat source . Bring the raw grains up to 190 degrees and hold while constantly mixing for 1 1/2 to 2 hours . Cool to 150 and add malt . Hold at 150 while mixing for 1 1/2 hours . Or use liquid enzymes per instructions .
You are making a whiskey mash , not beer .
2# to the gallon is a good rule of thumb for a mash .

+1 on the grind. I add my unmalted grains at 212°F roiling boil then let them cool naturally to 145°F then add malted grains.

To each their own, but I think that grinding the grains to flour increases the extraction. I use a hammer mill, makes grinding it faster.

[BourbonJim]

Thanks guys for the tips. I appreciate everyone pitching in here. Here is a little more info.

Total liquid volume is 9 gallons (initially) with 8 gallons of water + 1 gallon of backset (with only 13.5 lb. of grains). When you chuck this into the oven at 250*F overnight, don't you think that a lot of the liquid will boil off in the oven?
ss

At first I was concerned about this so I started with a lower temp. I increased it until it boiled very slowly. It gets to the slightest simmer. No chance of boil over at this rate. I will post a pic next week.

And come on man, you're a beer brewer....use your hydrometer to check (and record) the OG and FG. I believe if you would (and shared with us what the OG was), you would see that you are not getting very good starch conversion in your mash process. And as stated above, the reason is the temperatures you're resting and/or holding at.
.
ss

I couldn't get a hydro reading on this if I tried. It would be like trying to get a reading on oatmeal.


I pitched yeast on another batch this morning. Same thing. Yesterday, it comes out of the oven like goo. Hit the right PH and temp to add malt. I actually added two more pounds of barley/rye at a lower temp (140) just in case it was too high at 155. Evdn though I know it's not. I add malt at 170 for beer. More malt cools the strike water to 148 for beer.

This morning, there isn't any clear liquid at all. Just an oatmeal like consistency. Definitely more loose than it came out of the oven but no liquid at all. I think there must be something in the corn. I am getting it from a feed store. I wonder if they add something to it. Next week I'm trying another source. I will add amalayse tomorrow if the ferment slows or stops.

I'll keep you posted.

[Mikey-moo]

Get some liquid enzymes, you shouldn't be pitching yeast into pudding. It should be liquid again by pitching temp.

[Pikey]

........I pitched yeast on another batch this morning. Same thing. Yesterday, it comes out of the oven like goo. Hit the right PH and temp to add malt. I actually added two more pounds of barley/rye at a lower temp (140) just in case it was too high at 155. Evdn though I know it's not. I add malt at 170 for beer. More malt cools the strike water to 148 for beer. .............

When you say " I actually added two more pounds of barley/rye at a lower temp (140) just in case it was too high at 155. " - I'm thinking I can't see any reason why it shouldn't convert - UNLESS the "Barley/rye" is just plain grain and has not been malted ?

Or it's been denatured in some way before being pitched - where is your malt coming from and how old is it ?

[still_stirrin]

- where is your malt coming from and how old is it ?

I'd assume...the local homebrew store, since the OP is a homebrewer...according to the original post Pikey.

[Pikey]

- where is your malt coming from and how old is it ?

I'd assume...the local homebrew store, since the OP is a homebrewer...according to the original post Pikey.

To quote "Sherlock Holemes"

"............when you have eliminated the impossible, whetever is left must be the answer - however improbable......."

He is getting gelatinisation, but little or no conversion, temperatures look ok-ish now. - What else is there ?

[HDNB]

zactly. what kind of malt are we using here?

[BourbonJim]

It sure makes me feel a lot better knowing that I'm not the only one puzzled by this one. I was concerned it was the oven. I didn't want to stop using the oven since it's so easy. Whew

I'll answer several concerns brought up from several in this one post.

When you say " I actually added two more pounds of barley/rye at a lower temp (140) just in case it was too high at 155. " - I'm thinking I can't see any reason why it shouldn't convert - UNLESS the "Barley/rye" is just plain grain and has not been malted ?

Or it's been denatured in some way before being pitched - where is your malt coming from and how old is it ?

I ground the grains to a finer consistency than I do for beer. Getting good flour throughout and broken kernels. The gets ground finer.
I am using two row brewers barley malt and malted rye.
I got both of them from the local brew house. I used the barley this weekend to make beer. It fermenter like a champ. OG of this last brew was 1.054. Gonna be good beer.

I am careful with sanitizing procedures since I have to be sanitary for beer. Bacteria and wild yeast causes all kinds of off flavors in beer.

The last thing that I question in the process is the corn. I guess they have added something along the way that limits the enzymes. I have no idea what it could be. The corn is locally grown. Maybe they spray it with something to prevent insects from dining on their grains. I'm going to try the corn at another store. It's a chain store so they may be more consistent with their grain. They're also more likely to have to answer to people worried about chemicals. The other grain store is locally owned.

The only other possibility is that there is some sort of conflict between the malted barley and malted Rye. Maybe the enzymes don't like each other. I don't know.

Glad to have some great minds on this one. I hope to solve this and get some good out of it.

Edited to clarify one point about the grains used.

[Pikey]

Hi Jim, There's no doubt you're getting the starch out of the corn because it goes thick.

How can "They" stop starch turning to sugar, given enzymes at the right temperature ? But this is not happening because it stays thick ! - It's either the temperatures or the malt ! (imho)

[HDNB]

i mix malt rye and malt barley all the time.

[Truckinbutch]

I use liquid enzymes . There is that critical period when the ground grains reach 150 degrees and the starch begins congealing . High temp enzyme has already been added and the long cook has begun . It takes on the jello/pudding texture and taxes my drill/paddle mixer to the max for a short time before everything liquifyies and goes back to converting to sugars .

[BourbonJim]

Hi Jim, There's no doubt you're getting the starch out of the corn because it goes thick.

How can "They" stop starch turning to sugar, given enzymes at the right temperature ? But this is not happening because it stays thick ! - It's either the temperatures or the malt ! (imho)

I certainly don't want to be argumentative, but those are the two things I'm certain aren't causing the problem. I used the two row malt this weekend to make beer. Got a great conversion. I added malt and the twice, once at 155 and once at 140 to be sure. Both ground very well. Stumps me. I will be glad when I get this one figured out.


There was some conversion of starches to sugar. I have a good fermentation going. I just don't know how much since it was too thick to use a hydrometer. The only way I can think of to stop enzymes from converting the starch to sugar is with preservatives. I have seen grape juice with preservatives stop yeast completely. Of course I didn't add any here and I don't know if preservatives can stop enzymes. I assume they're living little creatures like yeast. And I am not sure if they use preservatives on the corn. I just choose to blame some faceless person at the feed store. I think I have the process right.

[MichiganCornhusker]

If I had 13# of grains, most of it corn, I'd use 5 gallons of water, and would expect somewhere around OG 1.065.
If I squeeze 4.5 gallons from that at 8% abv and run it I'd expect less than 1.5 L of alcohol. After making cuts maybe 1 L of 160 proof.
Why all the head scratching here? Am I missing something?

I know it can be done more efficiently, but this doesn't seem way out of line.

[BourbonJim]

If I had 13# of grains, most of it corn, I'd use 5 gallons of water, and would expect somewhere around OG 1.065.
If I squeeze 4.5 gallons from that at 8% abv and run it I'd expect less than 1.5 L of alcohol. After making cuts maybe 1 L of 160 proof.
Why all the head scratching here? Am I missing something?

I know it can be done more efficiently, but this doesn't seem way out of line.

I was expecting by twice as much. About two liters from the 9 gallons. If I only got 4.5 gallons at 1.065 I'm leaving about half of the sugar in the wash as starches. At least that's what I get from the beer calculator. I predicted 75 percent conversion and anticipated about a 2 l yield. But I suppose you're right. It wouldn't be way out of line. Just half as much.

[BourbonJim]

Wanted to update this thread this week. And what a difference a week made.

Here's the updated process.

1 gal backset
9 lb cracked corn (From another store!)
2.5 lb milled barley malt
1.5 lb milled rye malt
8 gallons of water

10 gal bop with corn, backset, 1 lb of the milled barley malt and water
In the oven at 250 f overnight. Temp was right at 200 f in the am so I suspect thermostat issues in my oven but that's another problem.

Corn was not as thick as before. Good sign.

Ph adjusted to 5.2

Cooled to 145 f and added remaining grains.

It was like magic! Within an hour, full conversion. Over 7.5 gallons of 1.06 OG liquid. I took it off the grain just Because I could. I added the grain back to the wash in the fermenter for flavor. Just separated out of excitement.

I only changed two things.
Malt pitching temp 145 instead of 155.
Bought the corn from a different store.

I don't think the temp change did a lot since my strike water is 170 when I make beer. It cools to 148 with grain. This wash cooled to 140 with the grain. I don't think 155 is too high but it didn't hurt. Thanks for the suggestion.
I think the first provider of corn is to blame. There must have been a preservative of some sort on the corn. Makes me concerned for the animals eating the crap.

Thanks for all the help. I think I got it figured out. Let's see if I can perfect my product.

[BourbonJim]

Last update for me on this one. Just for documentation and to help others.
Completed the rendering of my corn mixture. It yielded a little over 2 l of 140. On the oak as we speak. Thank you all who contributed. I think the lower temps and new corn did the trick.

[bilgriss]

Glad to hear you've had success!

[Pikey]

Glad to hear you've had success!

+1

Those temps are a consistent source of these problems aren't they ? Wierd how a few degrees makes all that difference. Do we have a thread explaining just what is going on here and why that 150 F seems so critical ?

[der wo]

The beta amylase starts to die over 115 F. So for maximum fermentability with low malt content 115 F would be the best temperature. But this is theory only, because the alpha amylase can stand 140 F without a loss and will help more at this temp than at 115 F. And the starches solve better at higher temp. The coarser the grind, the more will a high temp help here. And mashing time and a perhaps starting fermentation or infection is also an argument against such low temps.

It's always the same. If someone has problems here with conversion, a too high temp is always at least partially the cause.

[still_stirrin]

...It's always the same. If someone has problems here with conversion, a too high temp is always at least partially the cause.

This should be a "sticky".
ss

[Tapeman]

The beta amylase starts to die over 115 F. So for maximum fermentability with low malt content 115 F would be the best temperature. But this is theory only, because the alpha amylase can stand 140 F without a loss and will help more at this temp than at 115 F. And the starches solve better at higher temp. The coarser the grind, the more will a high temp help here. And mashing time and a perhaps starting fermentation or infection is also an argument against such low temps.

It's always the same. If someone has problems here with conversion, a too high temp is always at least partially the cause.

What do you think about a low starch content? I boiled the snot out of a batch of (whole kernel) sweet corn and yielded almost no starches. Had to add some dextrose and cane sugar to the wash to make it worth the effort. Still have about 10lbs of corn left but it may need supplementing with some cracked feed corn before I go at it again.

[Still Life]

What do you think about a low starch content? I boiled the snot out of a batch of (whole kernel) sweet corn and yielded almost no starches. Had to add some dextrose and cane sugar to the wash to make it worth the effort. Still have about 10lbs of corn left but it may need supplementing with some cracked feed corn before I go at it again.

Whole corn doesn't give access to starches as easily as cracked or meal.
I run all my cracked corn through a blender, making meal flour, and never have trouble with it.

[Tapeman]

What do you think about a low starch content? I boiled the snot out of a batch of (whole kernel) sweet corn and yielded almost no starches. Had to add some dextrose and cane sugar to the wash to make it worth the effort. Still have about 10lbs of corn left but it may need supplementing with some cracked feed corn before I go at it again.

Whole corn doesn't give access to starches as easily as cracked or meal.
I run all my cracked corn through a blender, making meal flour, and never have trouble with it.

So using fresh but older sweet corn would require crushing the kernels probably?

[Still Life]

Probably wouldn't hurt. Main thing is to not have any preservatives in it.
That can bring things to a halt.

[goose eye]

140 on oak

So I'm tole