Triple Distilliation

[Brian Boru]

Has anyone tried triple distillation to get Irish pot still style whiskey? My question is this. After a spirit run, I might have 50-60 ABV spirit. You can't distill that without risk of fire. So would you add wort/water and do a triple distillation?

[der wo]

I haven't tried.
But they don't dilute. They distill longer. For example wash 8%, low wines 20%, high wines 40%, new make 75%.

[Pikey]

I haven't tried.
But they don't dilute. They distill longer. For example wash 8%, low wines 20%, high wines 40%, new make 75%.

That's interesting der wo - do they do a heads and tails cut on the last distil, or just lose fores and the worst of the tails ?

[der wo]

I haven't tried.
But they don't dilute. They distill longer. For example wash 8%, low wines 20%, high wines 40%, new make 75%.

That's interesting der wo - do they do a heads and tails cut on the last distil, or just lose fores and the worst of the tails ?

They don't cut fores and heads. Or perhaps only something like once a year. And the tails are recycled to next batch. At the end all ethanol will be in the barrel.

[der wo]

...I might have 50-60 ABV spirit. You can't distill that without risk of fire...

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=60043
Triple distillation of Woodford Bourbon distillery:
-after 1. dist. they get 40pr
-after 2. dist. they get 110pr
-after 3. dist. they get 158pr

[Pikey]

I've seen on other recent threads, some of the Scotch distilleries do things a similar way and it explains how I'm getting towards an unpeated Scotch taste by similar means, except I start with higher abv. and do a 1.5 wherein the heads go in the bend, and the most of the tails go back into the boiler. The only thing I will never do is leave the fores in ! I guess with our much less frequent distillations, there wouldn't even be any need to chuck the tails once a year !

Thanks der wo - Just one of those rare "AHA" moments, which promote understanding

[der wo]

Edit:
Sorry, I was confused, I was thinking right now about continuous Bourbon distillation, where they don't cut fores... Of course with potstills they cut fores. But they recycle them like the tails. And perhaps they toss some once a year (a member here claimed this, he heard it at a Scotch distillery tour).

[Pikey]

It does seem that the pot distillers are very interested in the tails and that the triple distillation is less concerned with "Purity" and perhaps more with attempting to get some of the "Tails" flavours smeared into the hearts by running each iteration (except possibly the last, deep into tails. The constant recycling of the "Tails" and apparent attempts to increase their contribution, is perhaps synonymous in some ways with the "Generational additions" in a Sour mash and the "Dunder" additions in a rum ?

I have to say I thought "Irish" had some additional column produced spirit incorporated at some stage ?

[der wo]

Yes. Many Irish Whiskies are column distilled, or partially. But this is not what we are talking here about I think.

On the one hand each distillation purifies the spirit, on the other hand longer runs rise the flavors... I am sure, from wash to 70% new make with two short distillations will not taste the same like from the same wash to the same abv with three long runs.
And I really would like to compare from the same wash a double distillation up to 70% and a triple distillation to 65%. Perhaps the triple distillation has more taste than the double distillation in this case.

[HDNB]

I've done both water and very clear wort on a 3rd pass.

i used water on both rum and rye that was far too strong flavoured, the water reduced the intensity of the flavour and made things nicer.

I have used a really clean wort on a more subtle COBB recipe and it gave it a richer finish, but there were more tails and that as a result gave a smaller heart cut. improved mouthfeel and flavour, but i don't think the juice is worth the squeeze unless you are trying to "fix" a spirit run that is thin.

[shadylane]

Has anyone tried triple distillation to get Irish pot still style whiskey? My question is this. After a spirit run, I might have 50-60 ABV spirit. You can't distill that without risk of fire. So would you add wort/water and do a triple distillation?

That depends on the still, how it's fired and what you want.
I'm going to guess, commercial distillers don't water down what goes into the spirit boiler.
To answer your question, I'd add enough water to stay below 40ish ABV.
Wort could also be used for the flavor But
I like to drink my Irish Whisky young, not wait for it to age past my expiration date
posting with others

[Pikey]

.............I like to drink my Irish Whisky young, not wait for it to age past my expiration date
posting with others

Aint that the truth _ what's the point of putting 50 gallons on oak for 12 years - if you only have 18 months of conscious connection with this forum left !

[Hillbilly Popstar]

To answer your question, I'd add enough water to stay below 40ish ABV.
Wort could also be used for the flavor But
I like to drink my Irish Whisky young, not wait for it to age past my expiration date
posting with others

Pardon my ignorance, but why is this even an ultimatum?

Do whiskeys made with low wines containing additional wash/backset/wort or low wines from a deep tails run, require age to be enjoyable?

It almost sounds like you're saying less flavorful likker makes for a better drink at a young age.

[shadylane]

Do whiskeys made with low wines containing additional wash/backset/wort or low wines from a deep tails run, require age to be enjoyable?

It almost sounds like you're saying less flavorful likker makes for a better drink at a young age.

[thecroweater]

its actually more to do with the spontaneous ignition temperatures of the liquids at a given proof and mitigating risk. 100% proof (50% abv) is the point at which the liquid will itself ignite and and old test of proof was to put gun powder in it to test if it would light ie was at 100 proof or above. At 40% abv under normal conditions the liquid will not light but heated the surface will for obvious reasons. Now a still kettle should not have enough oxygen in there for this to be an issue but the higher the abv the higher the risk is and that is why its not recommended you exceed around the 40% abv mark, its a no brainer really.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

its actually more to do with the spontaneous ignition temperatures of the liquids at a given proof and mitigating risk. 100% proof (50% abv) is the point at which the liquid will itself ignite and and old test of proof was to put gun powder in it to test if it would light ie was at 100 proof or above. At 40% abv under normal conditions the liquid will not light but heated the surface will for obvious reasons. Now a still kettle should not have enough oxygen in there for this to be an issue but the higher the abv the higher the risk is and that is why its not recommended you exceed around the 40% abv mark, its a no brainer really.

I understand that. But that didn't seem like the point that was getting made. Cause adding backset, additional wort, or even water to your low wines, as well as running the strip DEEP into the tails are all viable means of safely reducing the abv of the low wines so they can be rerun.

I dont see why adding water would make a better young whiskey than any of the other methods discussed in this topic (aside from the unsafe method).

Not trying to be argumentative. Just thought maybe I was missing something.

[Kegg_jam]

... so going deeper into tails will give more flavor. Maybe too much so that you get some funky flavors... when aged those flavors turn into complexity or character or whatever you want to call it.

But for drinking young less tails can make a less funky young whiskey... or something like that.

[Pikey]

........I dont see why adding water would make a better young whiskey than any of the other methods discussed in this topic (aside from the unsafe method).

.......... Just thought maybe I was missing something.

I think what shady was trying to say was that if you distil to low abvs and leave the heads in, your final product will contain elements of heads and tails which may be considered undesirable taste wise. If you dilute your product with water, to second distil, the complex (sometimes downright ugly) tastes of those tails will be left in the pot and will not need "The Healer" (time) to mellow their ugliness into "complexities"

Some of us are approaching ages where the next birthday is becoming more of an "IF" than a "When" and it may be a wise man who plants a tree he may never sit under according to legend - but there is also a case to be made for "Spending the kids inheritance"

[Edit - Like what Kegg-jam says ]

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Ill buy that for a dollar.
Thanks for breaking it down for me.
I'm getting better, but I aint there yet.

[Pikey]

This has been a most educational thread - the principles of triple distillation for flavoursome booze seem to be emerging and I am beginning to see why some distilleries might do that.

Whether I shall try it is doubtful, although I would love to, I think the ageing requirements alone rule it out for me.

I just wish I had found the way into this hobby many years ago when my old man ws still alive

Some of you younger ones may find this a really productive way forward

[NZChris]

I'm picking that the likes of Bundaberg, various Jamaican rum distillers with double thumpers and Irish triple run Whisky distillers really don't care what the safety advice is on an American home distiller forum when they charge their stills with over 40% abv low wines and high wines ready for a run.

[The Baker]

Pikey said, 'Some of us are approaching ages where the next birthday is becoming more of an "IF" than a "When" and it may be a wise man who plants a tree he may never sit under according to legend - but there is also a case to be made for "Spending the kids inheritance" "

Another point of view;

A man lays down a cellar for his son.

Geoff

[Saltbush Bill]

Its always been my belief that double and triple distillation wasn't about upping proof but was to make a cleaner spirit due to the tendency of pot stills to smear.
Each distillation gives an opportunity to remove more heads and tails.
Before the heads and tails drinkers among the crowd start saying you need them to make a decent spirt ....I'll just say that I think that's bullshit too.
You don't see people triple distilling when they use a 4 plate column do you ?
The OP asked the question " would you use water or wort to dilute the boiler charge for the second or third run"
Doing that your just adding more heads and tails to a product that your trying to remove them from, I dont see the point in doing that.

[Kareltje]

But that is not a matter of bullshit, but of taste.
You are right if you want to make a neutral, as tasteless as possible, for example a wodka or the base for a gin, a Geist or another added taste drink.
But for some drinks like whisk(e)y or rum you need the taste of the original ingredients. The peat, the smoke, the dunder. To get these in your final product you apparently need or can use remixing parts of the heads and tails.
And after that some add even more taste by aging in wood.

[Pikey]

I think this has been a very educational discussion and the first five or so posts have led me and I suspect others to question my own beliefs about the apparent purpose of triple distilling a flavoured spirit.

There was a time we believed methanol could be eliminated in foreshots. By research and discussion we now know different.

My own belief was that the several distillations was to reduce flavour to acceptable levels whilst we have heard another view above. This is the view implied in the advertising on the labelling "Triple distilled".

The first few posts of this thread are factual and any disussion and conclusions drawn from them are either logical or not.

This thread may be one of the key bottles in the "Cellar for our sons...." we are laying down here

[Pikey]

We are talking about Irish whiskey triple distil - or at least that's where we started. The other Celtic whisky seems close enough to be part of the discussion too and Rum comes in many forms. der wo has published the process used by some distilleries and these are factual, not speculations or "beliefs".

I don't know much bout Bourbon, but I have read elsewhere that Europeans generally do not make cuts in the way we are advised to.

For dinking white or young, I think some cuts are a valuable tool. The blurring of the boundaries and apparent misunderstanding seems to come from the spirits destined for aging in oak.

As to how much flavour comes from the wood, some does of course. But if I said "LAphroaig" - that burnt plastic taste which is so prevalentt definitely does not come from the oak, especially since the oak is second hand !

Maybe we are talking about different beasts here ? USA with cuts - European without ?
{Edit USA on New oak, Scotch - on second hand (Not sure about Brandies and Irish) ]
- Just a thought.

Edit:

[der wo]

Many good ideas here!

I'm picking that the likes of Bundaberg, various Jamaican rum distillers with double thumpers and Irish triple run Whisky distillers really don't care what the safety advice is on an American home distiller forum when they charge their stills with over 40% abv low wines and high wines ready for a run.

Its always been my belief that double and triple distillation wasn't about upping proof but was to make a cleaner spirit due to the tendency of pot stills to smear.
Each distillation gives an opportunity to remove more heads and tails. That's 100% correct. It's a opportunity. But two clean distillations can make a purer spirit than three dirty ones. When you distill three times you still have the choice to produce something with strong or little aroma.
Before the heads and tails drinkers among the crowd start saying you need them to make a decent spirt ....I'll just say that I think that's bullshit too. Live and let live, ok?
You don't see people triple distilling when they use a 4 plate column do you ? I think we are talking about triple potstill distilling.
The OP asked the question " would you use water or wort to dilute the boiler charge for the second or third run"
Doing that your just adding more heads and tails to a product that your trying to remove them from, I dont see the point in doing that. One point is pH. Many here like to dilute low wines with wort. You don't believe and didn't try. That's ok. I also try only things where I think it will perhaps be a success.

[Pikey]

@Brian - You haven't said much mate - are you understanding what we are saying about that distillation until the proof is down ? - Please ask if you don't - further to your question, are you wanting to drink it young ? or to age it for a longish time on oak ?

[Pikey]

It seems that there is a good support for this thread and shady, I think it is impossible to answer the OP's question, in view of the revelations, without knowing what sort of timescale he is looking to be drinking in. Clearly, at the abv's he is talking, there is already a lot of tails discarded, so is he wanting to drink it young ?

Also with what we seem to have learned one wonders whether it is advantageous to do triple distils with just water or backset at all ?

[Edit - which is why I asked a few posts back, about his timescale.]

[Kareltje]

I have seen some very intricate schemes of multiple distillations with reusing both heads and tails, but I can not find them again. If I remember correctly, der wo had a link to them. But I am not sure.
The same goes for rum: both heads and tails and even backset/dunder are reused.