Blue Corn adventure

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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japsinok
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Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

After going AG at the beginning of the year, I currently have high rye bourbon (based on NCHooch's Carolina Bourbon) and honey bear bourbon aging in the rack house (aka, the tool shed). On a recent cross country drive, I stopped off in Eastern New Mexico and picked up 150# of organic blue corn, since I really like Balcones Blue and Baby Blue Corn whiskies. Bought a corona mill a while back with this in mind. Since the cost is already high ($30/50#, rather than $8/50# of TSC cracked corn), I plan to use only the blue corn, alpha- and glucoamylase enzymes, and ferment with DADY or bakers yeast, but no malted grains in the mash. (Malting my own may be my next adventure). I would appreciate any thoughts, advice, and comments as I set out on this adventure. This thread is equally for me to document this project, on top of my databook notes.

This weekend, I manually ground 10# on the corona. Then I got smart and replaced the center handle bolt with a 3" x 5/16" x 18TPI bolt and used a 1/2" nut driver on my old Milwaukee Magnum 4.5 amp drill. Milled the rest of the 50# bag in only a few minutes. As an aside, since I don't (yet) have a permanent mount for the mill, I found that a paint strainer bag like I use to squeeze the wort, but here enclosing the pan and mill, also works great to prevent fly away grain and dust. The corona ground it finer than what I get from TSC, so I hope for reasonable conversion. But I also do not know the starch content of blue dent vs yellow dent corn.

For the first test mash, I hydrated 10# overnight in 4 gallons of filtered water, heated to 160F and added 1Tbsp alpha-amylase, covered with blankets and left to rest 30 mins. Returned to heat and brought to 200F with stirring, turned off heat and covered and left for an hour to gelatinize. As expected, it was a solid mass after the hour so added 1 gallon H2O to thin. This also immediately brought it down to 160F so I added 1 Tbsp alpha-amylase and left for several hours covered with blankets. When I checked, it had cooled to ~130F. Heated it up to 140F, added ~1Tbsp glucoamylase, and covered with blankets. Then, at the end of day, again reheated to bring from 125F back to 140F, added another Tbsp each of alpha and gluco, covered and left O/N.

This morning it BRIXed to 13 = 1.053 = potential alcohol ~6.5%. This is a bit lower than my usual yields using malt and backset, so I suspect not adjusting the pH inhibited the conversion especially by the glucoamylase. Since this is a new project, I have no backset to use for pH adjustment and I didn't use anything else (lemon juice, tomato paste). I checked pH only only after mashing (it pHed to pH 6.1). I am hoping that once the first stripping run gives me backset, I'll get better conversion with the more acidic conditions.

I have to say it, it is the most beautifully colored bluish/purplish mash I have seen.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

This afternoon I filled a 5 gallon fermenter with the mash, added 1/4 cup oyster shells, and hydrated/pitched 10g DADY. After several hours, it is already bubbling away at 75F.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by zapata »

Interested in hearing about this. $30 sounds reasonable to me, I've considered some but would have to pay far more than that plus shipping for any source I've found. My solution was to grow some myself, alas I got a late start and it isnt looking too promising. Thats fine, I'll do better next year, and that gives you plenty of time to sort it out for me :)
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Sunny State Products is where I got it. Yes, the shipping is what would kill you, but because I was passing through, I made arrangements beforehand to just pick it up. Actually, what Honeyville sells online for $66.99 is the exact same product purchased directly from Sunny state for $30.

I am excited to see what flavors from the blue corm come through the distillate. Will keep posting/updating on this thread.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Good luck japsinok, I think you will be very happy with the results.

I spring for 50# of the Honeyville last year, malted half the bag, and I really like the whiskey.
I oaked most of it, but it is the best white whiskey I've made so far.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Thanks MCH, I am looking forward to the results. I am certainly curious about the possible difference in flavor that will come from the absence of malt, but I am not yet ready to tackle malting my own. That will come though!
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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As the initial blue corn ferment is winding down, I decided why not take some and attempt to malt it. After reading, it seems the bucket in a bucket method with airstone in the bottom is simple and effective. I have been soaking 10# in a holey 5 gallon bucket covered with water for 2 days now, alternating 9 hr soak and 3 hr air rest. I'm just using filtered water from outside faucet (not heated) and leaving the bucket outside. Daytime highs have been in the low 80's but the past two nights have been low 60s and mid 50's last night. After only two days, I already begin to see rootlets emerging (even though I'm still in the soaking steps). This evening I will drain the water, place a couple inches of water in the bottom of the outer bucket (which is actually a 6 gallon SS turkey fryer) along with the airstone, and gently mix the grain several times daily. Germination % appears high too. I'll be able to get a count soon. So far so good!! I still plan to use liq. enzymes in the mashing (I'm not a total purist) but if this experiment goes well, it will put another arrow in my stillers quiver!!
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Should be able to strip the first small 5 gallon ferment this weekend.

Meanwhile, the blue corn malting experiment continues. After soaking 10# in the nested holey bucket setup for 48 hr, with 4 water change/air rests, I transferred the grain, split evenly between two disposable catering aluminum trays with ~50 small holes poked in the bottom of each, and suspended those inside two SS shallow trays above about an inch of water, with air stones in the water. The corn is about 3 inch (7.5cm) deep. The smell of the sprouting corn is kind of grassy but not putrid, but I do not know exactly what to expect since this is a first attempt. I rinsed the grain immediately after it was transferred to the trays, added dilute H2O2 (<1%) to bottom pan, and spritzed a 1% H2O2 solution over the grain. That also seems to have reduced the odor.

These photos are 24hr after the previous photo, and 12 hr after transferring to covered trays. Total time since beginning to soak is about 60 hr.

The trays are outside on the patio, but not in direct sunlight. Our daytime high today will be in the low 80's, with nighttime lows in the 60's. I have not used warm water at any step, but only municipal water from an outside tap that is at ambient temp (~60F). So far, these conditions seem to be working, though I have not determined % germination yet, and hopefully the H2O2 and oxygenation will ward off nasty mold and bacteria.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Your corn malt looks great.

When I did my blue corn malting it was pretty hot summertime.
Toward the end the corn started to smell a little funky, sort of cheesy, and seemed like it was getting soft, so I did a quick dry and set it aside. It wound up making a very flavorful whisky, sort of fruity. I've wondered if the funk when malting added those flavors the same way a lacto infection would after fermenting.

I like to mix corn malt with raw corn 50/50. I'll look forward to seeing how this works out for ya.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Thanks for the encouraging words, MCH.

I keep encountering more rabbits down in this hole. And it keeps getting deeper. Malting could become its own hobby with an endless set of parameters to tweak. Time, temp, length of acrospire, peroxide/no peroxide, drying time, drying temp. The list goes on.

I have in fact wondered about what surface contaminants may do to enhance/detract from the final product. In particular, I was also wondering about the use of H2O2 and its effects on the endogenous yeast. I read another thread where the OP fermented blue corn using the natural yeast on the surface of the corn. I wouldn't mind trying that as well. But I wonder how 1% H2O2 affects the surface microbiome, including the yeast. Is 1% peroxide sufficient to kill those yeasties? Lots of variables to tweak before one even gets to mashing!!
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

japsinok wrote:Thanks for the encouraging words, MCH.

I keep encountering more rabbits down in this hole. And it keeps getting deeper. Malting could become its own hobby with an endless set of parameters to tweak. Time, temp, length of acrospire, peroxide/no peroxide, drying time, drying temp. The list goes on.

I have in fact wondered about what surface contaminants may do to enhance/detract from the final product. In particular, I was also wondering about the use of H2O2 and its effects on the endogenous yeast. I read another thread where the OP fermented blue corn using the natural yeast on the surface of the corn. I wouldn't mind trying that as well. But I wonder how 1% H2O2 affects the surface microbiome, including the yeast. Is 1% peroxide sufficient to kill those yeasties? Lots of variables to tweak before one even gets to mashing!!
Oh yeah, left out another big tunnel in this rabbit hole ....smoking the malt. Different woods, times, temps, moisture content. It's too bad I still must work. My job keeps getting in the way of my life!!
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

After 4 days, the 5 gallon mash was at 0.996 and still bubbling slowly. Calculator indicates it should be about 7% after an OG=1.053. Since that is a little above the theoretical yield, my guess is that conversion continued in the ferment after mashing. ] Plan to strip it Saturday. One thing that is VERY different with this ferment has been the smell. This is absolutely the most pleasant aroma for any fermentation that I have ever had. If I were blindfolded, I would not be able to tell that it is corn. Wondering if anyone else who has fermented blue corn has experienced this, or perhaps I have a "good" infection on the surface that masks the corn aroma I am used to. After straining 100ml into my grad cylinder to test FG, I tasted. It is of course sour with no sweetness at all, but the flavor is very different from anything else I have mashed and fermented (corn/barley/rye and corn/barley/wheat) and very nice. Can't wait for the spirit run.

Meanwhile, the malting experiment continues. It is now 96 hr after beginning to soak, and 48hr after the start of incubation. I scooped a sample of the grain to determine % germination. 150/170 have an acrospire, or one that is about to emerge from beneath the husk, so ~88% germination. Acrospire length of many is 1/2 to 3/4 inch. I rinse them off twice a day, and spritz with 1% H2O2, and keep them covered above a pan of aerated water. I plan to let them grow out to about 1.5~2 inches and then dry. Hopefully this will be on Sunday so that I can dry, remove roots and acrospires, and use 5lb of malted corn in the next 20# mash bill. I know the DP of corn malt is low so I will still plan to use enzymes.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Stripped the first mash yesterday down to 10% and got about a gallon of 35%ABV that went into the carboy awaiting more for a spirit run. Used 2 gallons of backset and 5 of filtered water to set up the next mash, 20# ground blue corn hydrated in those 7 gals overnight. This morning began the mash, heating to 160F for 30 min pre-mash alpha-amylase rest, then brought to 200F and turned off heat where it now sits. I'm hoping for a little better conversion than the first mash (1.053) using backset to lower pH. Should know in the morning, after finishing this mash. Decided to keep this run all raw corn (no malt), then do a second 50:50 malt:no malt, and see what the taste difference is between no malt and malt blue corn whiskey.

With the cooking corn now on autopilot, turned my attention to my other project, malting some blue corn. Acrospires are now slightly longer than 1" so need to let them grow a little longer; looking for average closer to 2" length. The 10# of germinating grain look great with close to 90% germination and no funk or mold. The added time also gives me the time to complete the set up of my malt dryer (described in another thread).
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

What I learned today..... Gelatinization and saccharification of 20# of corn in a 20# mash bill, is a lot different from 14.4# corn in a 20# mash bill. I hydrated 20# in 7 gallon water and backset. Even with addition of alpha-amylase and a 160F rest, once I raised the temp to 200F and let it sit for an hour, it was stiff as pudding. I added 2 more gallons to bring the temp down to 175F, mixed, and let it cool to 160F. Even with the added water, it was still quite thick and hard to mix.

But then the magic happened. I added the alpha at 160F, let it cool to 140F and added the glucoamylase. I thought, there's no way this will thin out. But several hours later, it has completely liquified. It had cooled to 130F so I reheated to 140F, added another Tbsp of both alpha- and glucoamylase, mixed thoroughly, covered with blankets, and put it to bed for the night. It has sweetened up a lot. I'll check OG and for starch in the morning.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Sour mashing with 20% backset seems to have made a big difference in the conversion. My original blue corn conversion BRIXed at 13 (1.053). The mash that I started yesterday, which contains 20% backset from the previous stripping run, BRIXed at 17 (1.070), for a potential of 9.5% ABV. I may add a little water to get it down to ~8%. This is only raw corn converted with enzymes, without malt.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Got the next 10 gallon blue corn ferment started, split into my two 6 gal fermenters. Both fermenters are already bubbling away.

My malt dryer (described in another tread called Malt Dryer) has turned out to be a success. It dried what started out as 10#, with a wet weight of 19#, down to 9# in ~30 hours. Props to Yakattack for suggesting an easy way to separate the roots and acrospires from the grain, with a drill/mortar mixer, a fan, and two buckets, and to skow69 for suggestions on operating the dryer. That's what I like about this board! Folks willing to share knowledge. I have to say that the malted corn smells wonderful, even after simply drying. I know it dried at 110F for some period today because when I left this morning, it was 103F inside the dryer, but this evening the heater was cycling on/off at 110F when I pulled out the grain to weigh it. The photo shows the malted corn on right, and raw corn on the left.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by Shine0n »

Man I'm loving this thread!!!
Great stuff, keep up the good work!
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Thanks, ShineOn. I think I am enjoying this process so much because it is something completely new. Learning to mash AG has been enjoyable, making ncHooch's Carolina Bourbon, and SCD's HoneyBear Bourbon. But, probably like most of us, the real fun is attempting new things (like malting) and this project is mostly untried (or true!!), since blue corn is not the most easily obtained grain, and you have to malt your own if you want that. I am happy to see there are a few threads on blue corn, so it's not a total unknown. And now that I can bring blue corn malt to the mash party, it'll be interesting to compare unmalted vs malted corn whiskey, and then there is the possibility of toasting/roasting a percentage of the malt in the mash (10% maybe) to see what new flavors emerge. If I can develop my own set of blue corn flavors (unmalted, malted, malted/toasted), I think it will bring me a whole new sense of accomplishment (provided the stuff is any good!!!). And if the process needs to be refined, well, that is what this hobby is about.

I'll keep posting the updates.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Now that I have the satisfaction of making my own corn malt, after reading some threads and useful info especially from MCH's experience with malting and roasting grain, I realized my air dried malt still has quite a grassy "barnyard" aroma and taste to it. With nothing to compare, I do not know if this is expected for corn (blue corn, at that). So, did a couple of roasting experiments this evening where I roasted ~1/2# at 150F for an hour, and another 1/2# at 200F for an hour in a small convection oven. I'm not worried about the DP so temps are to determine flavor differences. They both definitely have a toasted flavor, and are slightly sweet, but both batches at either temperature still have a bit of the grassy barnyard taste, though less than the air dried, with the 200F having less "grassiness" than the 150F roast.

Will be interesting to see what affect this has on a mash, when I get around to using it. I'm thinking that a small amount of the roasted malt in a mash will go a long way. Though, I have to complete my unmalted blue corn whiskey before this will get used.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Mashed the next 20# of blue corn. My conversion was a little lower than I've had in the past, but I was testing my new mixer (viewtopic.php?f=85&t=67776) and don't think I cooked it to a high enough temp since it never got much above 170F, even though it thickened up as it normally does. This mash brixed at 11.5, just under OG 1.047. I think I have probably left too much unconverted starch. Even if I get only 5% ABV from the 10 gal ferment, stripping and adding it to what I have already stripped should yield enough for my first spirit run of 100% blue corn whiskey.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Got another 10# of blue corn malting. I think it has about another day before it goes in the malt dryer. Chits are still less than an inch today. In the mean time, I squeezed and stripped another 20#/10 gal mash. I now have enough low wines at ~35%ABV for my first blue corn spirit run, which will be from only unmalted corn. I'll soon get started on a mixed malted/unmalted blue corn mash, with about 10% toasted corn malt. Looking forward to making that taste comparison, both white and oaked.

Here is a question for some of you malters, for which I have not seen an answer. If I want to smoke some of the malt for additional flavors, is it best to dry first, remove acrospires and roots, then remoisten and smoke it later, or would it make any difference if I just smoke the green malt immediately after malting and then remove chits at the end? And if you smoke it immediately, can you "oversmoke" it too much since I presume you would not smoke it long enough to completely dry it.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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So, I just finished my first spirit run on this 100% blue corn whiskey project, all unmalted and converted with enzymes. I am airing 20 something 300 ml fractions under coffee filters overnight and will make cuts tomorrow. But tasting a few jars along the way tells me this is going to be a very nice sippin' whiskey. As I got into the tails (or at least what I think should be tails), I found that the flavors continued to be rich and full without the wet dog. So I searched and found a thread on Straight Corn Whisky, Cuts and Tails?!(http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 7#p7385562) that confirms my own observation that I do not think there will be very much in the way of tails in this whiskey. Even the 30% jar has very nice flavors that I will likely blend back into the aging stock, while the next jar began to take on expected cardboard flavor. I didn't measure that one but I'm sure it's in the 20~30% abv range. I did not expect this and wonder if it's a corn thing, rather than an AG property. I've been doing AGs continually since the beginning of this year and this is the first run to have so few off flavors deep into the tails (30%), where I usually stop my lower end cuts in the 60% range.

My third 10# batch of blue corn malt is now drying so I will soon have accumulated about 30 lb of malted blue corn so the next run will be made from 50% malted and 50% unmalted blue corn. Updates to follow.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by Shine0n »

I like this thread!

Hell, I haven't done all corn let alone blue corn but I'm liking what I see and hear :thumbup:
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Thanks, ShineOn! So far, this has been a pretty nice ride. And I'm learning a lot about other aspects of this hobby too. Getting some good corn whiskey out of this is almost like gravy at this point, since malting has become almost as enjoyable as the mashing, fermenting, and distilling.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by jb-texshine »

Shine0n wrote:I like this thread!

Hell, I haven't done all corn let alone blue corn but I'm liking what I see and hear :thumbup:
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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I certainly have read a lot on the Booner's All Corn thread, in developing this blue corn project. One of these days I'll have to try the high temp Sebstar HTL that Woodshed uses. But to this point, I've been able to get good conversion of corn with BSG alpha and Novozyme Gluco (which are a bit less expensive) and the no boil gelatinization method. However, I have to confess ignorance; it might be that after I try the high temp enzyme, I might be a convert. I think Booner's (and SCD's Easy Mashing) proves that corn does not have to be as big of a hassle as a lot of folks think.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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japsinok wrote:I certainly have read a lot on the Booner's All Corn thread, in developing this blue corn project. One of these days I'll have to try the high temp Sebstar HTL that Woodshed uses. But to this point, I've been able to get good conversion of corn with BSG alpha and Novozyme Gluco (which are a bit less expensive) and the no boil gelatinization method. However, I have to confess ignorance; it might be that after I try the high temp enzyme, I might be a convert. I think Booner's (and SCD's Easy Mashing) proves that corn does not have to be as big of a hassle as a lot of folks think.
I agree with you on corn ease.
Just got a good Booner's going with Brewhaus high and low-temp enzymes and it just about blows the fermenting lid off, it's so active.
(I've always had success with these alternate enzymes.)
Good luck on your Blue. It's not readily available where I am.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by japsinok »

Still Life wrote: Good luck on your Blue. It's not readily available where I am.
:thumbup: Not easily available here either. I just got lucky driving through NM in August and found the supplier that happens to be located right along I-40.
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

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Starting part 2 of this project, mashing with malted blue corn. I'm doing a 50:50 cooked corn:malted corn in the mash, with 1 lb of the malt having been toasted at 200F for 1 hr. This mash has a richer fuller aroma than using just the cooked corn. I planned to use enzymes all along since corn has such a low DP. I gelatinized 10# in 6 gal (4 gal H2O + 2 gal backset), cooled to 160 with 2 gals water, and added 1Tbsp alpha-amylase. Cooled to 150F and added the malted grains. I waited several hours before adding the GL, just see if my home malting had worked. Sure enough, it was beginning to sweeten a bit. (Aside: it is so satisfying to know that you can malt your own grain and it works!!!). I adjusted temp to 140F and added a Tbsp of glucoamylase, covered with blankets and left overnight. This morning I have 10 gals of mash that Brixed 16 (OG = 1.065). Pitched 10g yeast (5g DADY + 5g bakers). Away we go!!
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Re: Blue Corn adventure

Post by greggn »

> Pitched 10g yeast (5g DADY + 5g bakers).

Any reason why you started a ferment with two different yeasts ? That's generally not a good idea as each will try to annihilate the other (and possibly produce some off-flavors in the process).
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