Ferments from Hell

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Boda Getta
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Ferments from Hell

Post by Boda Getta »

I have been distilling about 7 years and nothing but all grains the last 3. My ferments have been routine with never any conversion nor ferment problems. My last two 30 gal Irish whiskey have gone bad. The first one was several weeks ago; the mast converted great, but when I ran it there was no alcohol there. Since my ferments have gone so well in the past I often don't bother to check the Ph or S.G. This mash didn't look quite right when I strained it and when I ran it in pot still I knew was wrong from the beginning. The temperature ran all the way up to 205F (yes, I use a thermometer, as well as a parrot) from the get go and the fore shots spelled weak. The early "heads" were only 100 proof and went downhill from there. I tasted what little distillate there was and it tasted funny. I stopped distilling and ditched the remaining mash.

I did a new mash last Sunday night and made good notes and documented everything. I sprayed Star San in the 30 gal Big Brute and everything that touched the mash.

The new mash converted great as usual.
The OG was 1.062
The PH was 5.79
SG after 24 hrs was 1.030
I noticed the cap wasn't thick and dry on top but was thin and wet. There appeared to be a slight dark discoloration around the edge. I tasted the mash and it seemed to taste unusually sharp like a weak vinegar.
SG after 48 hrs was 1.020
sG after 72 hrs was 1.020
There was some small amount of bubbling going on.
SG after 96 hrs is still 1.020 and a Lacto infection has formed (my mashes often has a Lacto infection and that has never been a problem).
The mash tastes ever more vinegary. The mash does not have a bad smell but a clean smell as normal.

It would seem I may have some of air borne infection floating around.
That's 60 gals of mash I've lost and I clearly have a bad problem. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions greatly appreciated. My calculation shows from 1.06 to 102 would net a little over 5% abv but based on the small run on the last bad batch I don't believe it.
Help!

BG
User avatar
kiwi Bruce
Distiller
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by kiwi Bruce »

I would look at the yeast as being the most likely problem...Do you use a strong yeast starter? How large if you do? What type of yeast do you usually use? Consider dropping a yeast bomb into this batch, it should over come the wild infection you have...you may have an Acetic acid bacteria and not a lacto...if it is metabisulfide the shi# out of it...a tea spoon per gal...readjust the OG and drop the bomb

I used to use a spare bedroom as my "man cave" and then out of the blue the room was over run with a wild yeast (one of the candidas) that made everything taste like green apples...I moved my brewery out of the room. If you think your brew room has gone south on you, you can fumigate it and run the risk of fuming the whole house
Getting hung up all day on smiles
Boda Getta
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Boda Getta »

Sorry, I meant to mention the yeast. I use Fleischmans Bread Yeast. Used it for years with absolutely no problem. I usually do 30 gal batches and use a 4 oz jar per 30 gals. I hydrated the yeast in warm water, then dumped into the 90F mash. I usually use a aquarium bubblier to aerate it for around 30 mins. The Lacto I mentioned is a white powdery infection floating on the top; it didn't appear until after the mash stalled. Pretty sure it's lacto and suspect it's not the problem.

Do you think it's possible to save this batch. Normally don't do yeast bombs and don't have a HBS locally. Can you recommend a yeast bomb I can make. I do some old yeast around can I boil the old yeast and add to hydrated new yeast. I also have gypsum and Epsom salt. It would be fantastic if I can save this batch but I'm afraid the damage is done.

Thanks for your help.

BG
User avatar
ShineonCrazyDiamond
Global moderator
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: Look Up

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I filled an entire 5 gallon barrel with ferments that all ended between 1.02 and one that ended at 1.04. You want to save the batch? Run it through your still twice. You'll get a nice 60% batch that will have wonderful mouth feel and an underlying sweetness. My barrel was one of my favorites, in part because of the high fg's.

The yeast strain is no problem, but you could have a bad batch. Buy some from a different store.

I have had the exact same results you have had for an entire year. I just keep on making whiskey and putting it up. I am recently on a campaign to try and finish dry, that involves new yeast, enzymes for the first time, and a new bill. Not because the whiskey is bad, but because I want it more controllable. We'll see.
"Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond."
Boda Getta
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Boda Getta »

Up-date. Just re-checked my mash. SG still stuck at 1.02, then checked Ph and it at 3.53. Should I try to raise Ph before adding yeast? I do have baking soda. How much should i add to 30 gal of 3.53 mash?

BG
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by NZChris »

I don't like the metabisulfite suggestion. Even if you have the all copper still from hell, you might not be able to clean it up, it would be better to kick the barrel over.

I'd run it, being grateful for what I got before the stall. If it smells nice and it is really important that the yield from this run is up where it should have been, you could add some high proof neutral to top up the abv before stripping.

For the next batch, watch pH like a hawk. You may have to put shells in yours to act as a pH buffer. You could try doing a sugar wash next. If that fails, you may have a virus killing your yeast.
User avatar
kiwi Bruce
Distiller
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by kiwi Bruce »

A cheap source of Sodium bisulfate..same as metabisulfate..is Walmart or a pool supply store, it's a swimming pool chem called pH down, 5lb is about $8.
To save the batch, if I were you, I'd kill the wild yeast that's floating on top...adjust the sugar back to your original gravity...and pitch a yeast bomb. When the ferment slows down, run it, don't let it finish---just in case you do have an Acetic infection, it needs the alcohol to convert to acid and it will chew your ethanol up.

This is my take on a Yeast bomb...the idea is to pitch so much active, healthy, active yeast, that it overwhelms a wash and takes control.
The bomb should be around 10% of the volume of the main batch...so for you about 3 Gallons.
for each gallon you'll need...
4 teaspoons of yeast (if I were you I'd go to the grocery store and get fresh yeast)
2 cups of white sugar
2 crushed vitamin B tables
1/4 teaspoon Epsom salts
1/4 teaspoon of yeast nutrient (if you have it) If you don't, boil a teaspoon of yeast/gal,let cool and add to the bomb.
Mix all the ingredients (except the yeast) in warm water until the sugar is dissolved... pitch the Re-hydrated yeast and let this sit until it working like mad.(over night)
pour this into the main body of your wash.
Within 12 hours this will be working like crazy.
Take daily gravity readings, but you should be done in three days...then run it, don't worry about the acids from the former infection...some of us go to a lot of trouble to get an infection in our washes...it greatly improves the product.
Good luck...and good stillin!
Getting hung up all day on smiles
User avatar
kiwi Bruce
Distiller
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by kiwi Bruce »

NZChris wrote:I don't like the metabisulfite suggestion. Even if you have the all copper still from hell, you might not be able to clean it up, it would be better to kick the barrel over.
metabisulfite is a source of Hydrogen sulfide gas, it's a preserving agent, it doesn't stay in solution as it's driven off by the carbon dioxide from the fermentation, that's why it's safely used in beer and wine making...just my 2c's
Getting hung up all day on smiles
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Pikey »

Here is a brief set of instructions on how to make vinegar.

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Your-Own-Vinegar

Note - 3 weeks to 6 months in the presence of oxygen after innoculating your ALCOHOLIC mix with vinegar bacteria.

der wo wrote on another thread that the CO2 cover will prevent the formation of vinegar.

However when your fermenter is empty - get a good steam cleaner and blast it with steam for a good time.

It soounds as though you're forming unfermentable sugars in your conversion process. Are you using malt or enzymes ?

Kiwibruce - "metabisulphite" releases sulphur dioxide not hydrogen sulphide, if I remember correctly.

[Edit- It kills yeast and bacteria etc - but could not be "Driven off" by CO2 as it kills yeast. It does however dissipate within 24 - 48 hours generally speaking so the yeast can be pitched. ]
User avatar
kiwi Bruce
Distiller
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Pikey wrote:Kiwibruce - "metabisulphite" releases sulphur dioxide not hydrogen sulphide, if I remember correctly.
Yes you are correct---my bad on that one, thanks for that!
Getting hung up all day on smiles
User avatar
Truckinbutch
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Truckinbutch »

There was a post recently about Star-San being a culprit in some fermenting problem .
I've lost a few ferments in the last year for various reasons . I still believe in the mantra; 'When in doubt , run it '. Nothing ventured , nothing gained .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Boda Getta
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Boda Getta »

Update
Firstly let say a big Thank You for all your comments and comments on my Ferments from Hell.
I was torn between the "Run It" school and the trying to recover the ferment school with yeast bomb, etc school. I made up a yeast bomb before bed last night, let it work overnight and added to the mash this morning. I will check the S.G late tonight; if the S.G. has dropped any I will give it a couple of days then run it. If it's still stuck at 1.02 I will run it tomorrow. I likely end up with a low low wine. I am going for a Irish style whiskey with a triple distill anyway so the low abv of the low wine shouldn't be a problem (I have 6-8 gals of good low wine anyway which will help.

I have learned a few things from this experience:
I have been spoiled by not having any problems in the past with my ferments and have just left them alone and keep my eye on the ball by not checking the SG's or Ph levels during the ferments and have lucky.
I think I misread the problem and assumed I had some type of exotic infection instead of a simple stuck ferment, likely from old yeast or low Ph or a combination of the two.

Question: Do any of you guys make up yeast bombs and pitch them from the get go instead of just pitching plain yeast. I have been adding some a small amounts of epsom salt and gypsum in the past but assumed the AG grains had enough nutrients.

Again, thanks for mall your help.

BG
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by NZChris »

I always rehydrate my yeast properly to maximize it's potential. I can't think of a good reason not to.
User avatar
kiwi Bruce
Distiller
Posts: 2324
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Transplanted Kiwi living in the States

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Strangely, the opposite the may be trending right now, if you check out the single malt whisky and rum posts. Under pitching and higher than normal fermentation temperatures, stresses the yeast, which makes them produce esters and phenols which are very desirable in whisky and rum.
Getting hung up all day on smiles
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by NZChris »

The last time I tried an under pitched, low temperature ferment, it stalled and nothing worked to restart it. Fortunately, it was only a still charge worth and chucking it the compost wasn't a big deal. Stressing the yeast does increase risk, so hygiene becomes much more important.
Boda Getta
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Boda Getta »

I always hydrate the yeast and always use a full 7 oz jar per 30 gal ferment. Always worked great in the past, not a clue what's changed.
BG
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by greggn »

> my mashes often has a Lacto infection
>I usually use a aquarium bubblier to aerate it for around 30 mins.


Perhaps the next time you might try aerating with a minute or two of pure O2 rather than 30 minutes of bubbled air. Though a lacto infection is not your current issue I'd make an effort to eliminate it from your mashing/fermenting workflow.
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
User avatar
Truckinbutch
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Truckinbutch »

Since I went AG I have been using 1/4-1/3 cup of yeast in warm mash (about half a 3# coffee can) while I'm transferring mash from the cook pot to the fermenter (32 gallon Brute) .
Immediately after transferring the mash I heat enough water to fill the fermenter to +/- 110 degrees .
I dump that starter in , top off with warm water , mix briefly , and dump in about a pint and a half of crushed oyster shells . From there I stretch another garbage bag over the top for a seal and come back when it's done .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
Boda Getta
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Boda Getta »

Have never used oyster shells. What do they do for the mash?
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by HDNB »

ive lost a few this year under what sounds like the same circumstance. nothing worked for me to get them going again...sodium bicarb to raise Ph and a yeast bomb got me another point, but stalled again. did it again and it got another point, stalled again.
the only thing i have not tried is pasteurizing again and re pitching. too much like work and any booze that is in there would start to boil off.
what i think my problems were:
-too high a pitch temp * forgot to stir when checking temp and the grain bed was hot, the outer worth was at 110*, stirred with yeast and temp shot up...i repitched when it cooled again but it didn't matter.
-did not stir well enough and had dry grain balls in the mash * twice i think, once was just a little, the second was bad (my stirrer broke)
-too low temp/too small a pitch. * left the cooling fans running and my ambient temp dropped way down with DADY...it worked off good lots of CO2, but usually finishes in 4=7 days, was still sweet, smelling good and bubbling after 10.it's been 2 weeks now, still smells good but cap never dropped and the fruit flies are in it. gonna run today if i can.

good luck. post the solution if you find it.

the ones that have worked flawlessly?
continuously stirred while cooking, grain added slowly to boiling water. intermittently stirred after enzyme steps.
temperatures for enzymes at precise stops
pitch LOTS of yeast at 105* (big starter gently stirred in plus a sprinkle on top)
keep the ferment +90* for duration.
done dry in 4 days. :thumbup:
never had a failure if i did all that.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
Worm_Drippinz
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:35 am

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Worm_Drippinz »

Try skipping the air bubbler next time and making a yeast bomb for the next batch.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by NZChris »

boda getta wrote:Have never used oyster shells. What do they do for the mash?
Nothing if you don't have a history of pH crashes, but if you do, the calcium carbonate can behave like a pH buffer as long as you use a sensible amount. I prefer using whole shells, recording the weight used and lost for future reference.
User avatar
Truckinbutch
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by Truckinbutch »

boda getta wrote:Have never used oyster shells. What do they do for the mash?
For me they buffer the PH to midrange if needed . They only break down if the PH goes low .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Ferments from Hell

Post by HDNB »

heh heh heh. got a full 10% return on this last investment. the cap that didn't fall was held up by un-crushed oats. finished dry 1.000

just cleaning up the tails of the strip now 8) :ebiggrin:
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
Post Reply