wheat wash SG not playing ball

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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needmorstuff
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wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

I am trying a wheat wash after a few months of sugar washes.

so I heated 23l of water to 75c stirred in 4kg of wheat flakes and when the water hit 65 mixed in .75kg of malted crushed wheat.

stirred every 15 minutes for 90 minutes.

I expected 1st to be 1.06 but it's 1.02... the temp is 45c so I adjusted for temp and that's apparently 1.029 but still miles away from 1.06

any thoughts?
Last edited by needmorstuff on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Still Life »

You want a minimum diastatic power of 30°L

Let's say the diastatic power of your malted wheat is 90°L. (Guessing)
Your total bill is 4.75kg, with .75kg being malted wheat
.75 / 4.75 = 0.158
0.158 x 90°L = 14.22°L

Not even halfway to 30. So there lies the problem. Not enough malt.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

x2 with stilllife
did it jell at all
seems like 75 wouldn`t be enough
gotta be like gravy
thats how i do it anyway.
i could be wrong though
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

it didn't gel. it wasn't even that thick...

any way to rescue this batch? or just better to ferment it out.

I have more wheat and malt so will alter ratios. I will do some reading but are you saying I need at least double the malt to flaked wheat ratio?
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

I just love learning new stuff!

This is my malt - http://www.bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-wheat-malt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
This is my wheat https://www.brewuk.co.uk/flaked-wheat-1kg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The malt has a Diastatic power of WK 250, if i read correctly it is converted by

(wk+16)/3.5
(250+16)/3.5 = 76

so

I want a minimum diastatic power of 30°L

The diastatic power of my malted wheat is 76°L.
My total bill is 5.5kg, with 2.5kg being malted wheat
2.5 / 5.5 = 0.4545
0.4545 x 76°L = 34.54°L

So I would need 2.5kg of my malt and 3kg of my wheat?

then end game is to reflux for vodka if that wasn't clear...

is it worth heating my mash and adding more malt? or should i just throw this away? its SG after leaving overnight is 1.03 now.

btw I got the recipe from this source.. the .pdf is in quite a few places on the internet so assumed it was good to go. You live and learn - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=18029
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Still Life »

Hey! You got it! Kudos on the WK to °L conversion!
Now you know one of the secrets to a good mash.

It's certainly worth re-heating to 60°C ---just don't overheat and denature any existing malt enzymes.
Then add the malt and let it rest 90 minutes or so.

Good luck to you.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

excellent! thanks again.

as I have 4kg wheat flakes in there already I will up the total malt to 2.75 by adding an additional 2kg of malt once it hits 60c.
2.75/6.75 = 0.4074074074074074
0.4074074074074074 X 76°L = 30.1°L

and I will get some more malt ordered for the other batches!

weird how that recipe can be so far off the mark **edit - maybe the recipe uses a American 6 Row Pale Malt @ 160 °L, but even then it would need 1kg malt with 4kg flaked**
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

quick update, I heated mash to 60c then added another 2kg of crushed wheat malt, stirred every 15 minutes for 90 mins and left overnight. This morning it is at 1.05 so I aearated and pitched the yeast.

Coming from sugar washes the cost of grain is double and the yield is half.. easy to see why they are so popular.

I have another 4 x 5 gallon batches of this to grain to get through though so I am hoping for something special from my vodka to make it worthwhile.

I am already reading about the Sebstar HTL Sebamyl GL Enzymes with great interest.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Still Life »

The added enzymes can guarantee a good mash when there's a shortage of malt, like in your original recipe.
Or all-corn like Booner's.

I know what you mean about cost and yield of an all-grain.
Had to give my wallet a rest after a 6-month all-grain binge.
Switched to Booner's for now to go easy on the budget. Cracked corn is $8 for 56lbs; and I already have the enzymes.
Booner's is CHEAP for this cheapskate!
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

The wheat and malt I have bought is "brewing" stuff, I do wonder if the "feed" type stuff is viable.

I paid £1.50 for 1kg flaked wheat and £1.80 for 1kg malted crushed wheat.

I can get 25kg sacks of "feed" micronized or flaked for £12.40 - or about a third of the cost of the "brewing" stuff. https://targetbaits.co.uk/ground-micronized-wheat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
or https://targetbaits.co.uk/particles/flaked-wheat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

feed grade wheat works great.
just malt the wheat and presto :thumbup:
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Chixter »

Can you get your hands on some enzymes?
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by HDNB »

needmorstuff wrote:Coming from sugar washes the cost of grain is double and the yield is half.. easy to see why they are so popular.
using enzymes and 50/300 grams malt to total grain ratio (whats that 17%?) is less than a buck a bottle. using sugar it's 1.50 a bottle.

mind you i live smack in the middle of grain country too. 8)

it's the best of both worlds, 17% is enough to give the flavour that i want and the enzymes are so cheap, it's insurance to get the job done.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

I can get enzymes on the interwebs but I don't live in grain country
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

I did wonder if malt would be required at all if using enzymes.. I am making vodka and do want a nice flavour profile and wondered if just wheat flakes would give me that.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Still Life »

Recipes such as Booner's 100% Corn have no malt & rely on adding liquid/powdered enzymes.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Bushman »

needmorstuff wrote:I can get enzymes on the interwebs but I don't live in grain country
There is also a member on another forum that has posted a good video on YouTube on how to use enzymes. Zymurgy Bob who wrote the book Making Fine Spirits uses this method at his distillery.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

The ferment went like a freight train! after 48 hours it was down to 1.005 where it has stayed for another 24 hours so I will leave it another 12 hours then strain through a nylon bag and leave outside (about 3c) overnight to clear - then syphon and strip.

So i put another one on last night, heated 22l of water to 74c - added 3kg flaked wheat and stirred, when it hit 65c i added 2.5kg of crushed malted wheat (this time I buzzed it in a nutri ninja to a powder) stirred it every 15 mins for 90 mins.

This morning it is at 1.04 SG - so I think the flaked wheat is a bit low at 3kg (6.6lbs) for 22l (4.8 glallons) - I know the ratio is 2.2lbs to 1 gallon but assumed this included the malt.. guess not. I did wonder how much sugar would be extracted from the malt itself so I guess the flaked wheat carries a bigger sugar payload than the wheat.

I have 9kg of wheat left and 7.5kg of malt that I had planned on running in 3 batches in a 6 gallon bucket. I will just run in 2 batches of 4.5kg flaked with 3.25kg of malt - giving an L of 31.9 and I will just keep 1kg malt spare. That is however going to give me 3.2lbs of grain (including the malt) per gallon of water.

Getting me some enzymes asap!
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Still Life »

Excellent!
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Cu29er »

needmorstuff wrote:...
That is however going to give me 3.2lbs of grain (including the malt) per gallon of water....
Cut your grain/water ratio down around 1.8 to 2.4lbs grain per gallon should work better. Amylase likes more swimming room.

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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by still_stirrin »

Also, build yourself a “wort chiller”, or get a coil of copper to rapidly cool your mash.

Your other, corollary thread is the result of wild flora starting the ferment before you pitched the yeast. Once you’re done mashing, you need to get the yeast started asap before wild things start to happen. Letting a mash set overnight to cool is like inviting the wild things in.

Get, or make a chiller...it’ll be a good investment.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

I was thinking the same thing.. my whole process sucks!

this is my thought.. for 5 gallons

get some HT Enzymes (sebstar)

get 5 gallons of water to 190
dump on 11lb of flaked wheat with the enzyme in a mash tun (igloo cooler)
let cool in mash tun until 150f then add SEBamyl GL
force cool to 75f with chiller
seperate liquid from grain
transfer liquid to fermenting bucket and aerate
pitch yeast and keep at 75f


only thing is I really didn't enjoy squeezing grain in the nylon bag.. I have watched a few videos on batch sparging and that looks less fuss - is that possible with this type of situation? if so would I just dump 2.5 gallons on the grain and sparge with another 2.5 gallons.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by still_stirrin »

Lautering (sparging) is not hard if you’re equipped to do it.

My mash vessel is a Coleman cooler (vertical style drinking cooler) and I have a grid of tubes in the bottom for draining the tun. When lautering, I recirculate (pump) from bottom to top until the runoff is clear. Then I run through a counterflow (Liebig) heat exchanger into the fermenter. I also rinse (lauter) the spent grains after I start the liquor runoff.

Mashing all wheat can be tough because typically wheat has been de-husked, so there’s not a lot of filter bed material to sift out the particulate. But, I use barley malt in all my wheat mashes and that helps a lot. The sweet liquor does eventually run clear...it just takes a while.

If you plan to ferment “on the grain”, which of lot of distillers do, then get a coil of copper and hook it up to the garden hose. Dropping that into your mash tun after mashing and chilling (and stirring) will cool your mash to pitching temperature quickly...30 minutes or so, depending on mash size.

As for the mashing process, there is a hotlink in my signature that I suggest you read. It’ll help you understand the brewing processes which also apply to distillers.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by still_stirrin »

needmorstuff wrote:...get 5 gallons of water to 190...dump on 11lb of flaked wheat with the enzyme in a mash tun...
You don’t need to gelatinize flaked wheat, because it has already been done when hot rolled (flaked). You can go straight to your saccharification temperature and add the GL, if not using barley malt.

But be forewarned, if using only flaked wheat (or oats), you’re going to fight really hard to lauter the mess. I’d suggest using at least 20% of your grainbill as barley malt (and then you can omit the enzymes too).
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Rice hulls if you don't want to add barley.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

I am not overly bothered about what I use.... this is my first attempt and I just tried the flaked wheat recipe. I wouldn't say it was easy or succesful. from 4kg of flaked wheat and 2.5kg of malted wheat I got 1 litre of distillate at 92% from a 5 gallon charge. it was a mess and laborious to strain all the milky solution after fermenting on the grain and the clean-up also a pain.

I do still wish to make all grain wort but will look for a more slick way of doing so.

maybe the use of cracked wheat and enzymes will give me that if used with a sparging process. i am not sure of thr benefits of fermenting on the grain... it seems like a lot of mess when there are easier ways.

I will do some more research as I am clearly lacking in knowledge and experience.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

mop wringer the wash then steam strip it in a thumper.
thats what i do.
sometimes wash is like cream and steaming it prevents scorching
leave room in the thumper for accumulation of water though :thumbup:
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

unfortunately I only have a reflux still - but I can only echo the "cream" like wash.

I attribute a good deal of the creaminess to the yeast I use, It's regular bakers yeast and I know it's a big part of the leftover gunge in a wash. I think moving from wheat flakes to crushed grain and enzymes and using an ale yeast will give me a cleaner wort to distill. That and I can sparge prior to fermentation to save the mess of squeezing the grains albeit at the expense of yield.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by Still Life »

If you think you'll do more grains, I repeat duke's recommendation.
A mop wringer bucket with a paint strainer bag is among the best advice I've received here.
Makes grain life efficient and easy.
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Re: wheat wash SG not playing ball

Post by needmorstuff »

doesn't anybody sparge? I get that the mop bucket is a great way of getting every drop but is it worth the effort? and how does one manage to sterilize a mop wringer
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