Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

dixiedrifter
Swill Maker
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:59 pm

Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by dixiedrifter » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:56 pm

For all of ya'll who been keeping up with my mashing adventures, you know I been using the MileHiDistilling enzymes without much luck for starch liquification... until now.

I ordered some of this stuff called 5.2 pH stabilizer from them... its made by 5 Star Chemicals. It is designed to buffer your mash's pH at a constant 5.2... not exactly ideal for the gluconase, but perfect for the amylase. Its a bit pricey @$13 a pound, but only a tablespoon is needed per 5 gallons.

Anyways, back to the mashing. After bringing 12 quarts of water to a rolling boil, and dumping in 10lbs of corn, I proceeded to add in a heaping teaspoon of the pH buffer while stirring with a drill and topped off with another 3 quarts of water. After a couple minutes on high heat the mash started thickening up and turning to starch. Normal.

Then for shits and giggles, I decided to throw in about 3 grams of alpha-amylase enzyme. Then something interesting happened... the mash which was starting to get thick and gravy like started thinning out right before my eyes, even as the temps were darn near boiling. After an hour and a half in the oven, the stuff was still for the most part a liquid even though the corn had settled down on the bottom and was sorta clumping together.

After stirring again, the corn mash started to look like cream corn outta the can... and I was thinking "now that's what I'm talkin bout!" To make things even better when I poured the liquicorn into my mash tun it didn't even stick to the sides of the pot and it rinsed right out with no scrubbing! Woot.

Normally with this water to corn ratio the end result would have been in one giant clump of corn the consistancy of mashed potatoes mixed with a good dose of Elmer's wood glue... it usually gums up so bad it has to literally be scraped out of the pot and scrubbed with steel wool to get it all clean.

So, I think its safe to say that a double dose of alpha-amylase is necessary for good starch liquification... one in the beginning before cooking, and one after.

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:03 pm

Grate discovery but a little late for double cook method. Boil corn rest (3-4 hr) (if thick add enzymes ) after 4 hrs re boil for about 1 hr add enzymes
stir the sh## out of it cover leave over night pitch yeast also vigueras stirring helps .macanacol mixers recommended

Dan Call
Swill Maker
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:55 pm
Location: Deep South

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dan Call » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:17 pm

I'm with you on the "stuck to the sides remove with pot scrubber" thing. My buddies have had that happen many times.

The question I have is this....are you doing gluco too?

And let me get this straight....you're adding the alpha while it's still at cooking temp? Is this high temp alpha?

What's a macanacoll?

This is my theoretical dream mash that I've not tried. Use white corn, malt 1/4 of whatever mashing quantity you use, do the enzymes, then add the malt, ferment. Some might say why bother with malting, but this would doubtless have an effect on taste. I'm wondering if this would make the best tasting pure corn you could get. It's just water, corn, and yeast in terms of the mash bill, with a few enzymes thrown in. Reading all this on enzymes, I'm more convinced than ever that commercial distilleries use the snott out of enzymes combined with highly cultured and high ABV yeast strains developed in-house with their additives being specifically tailored to the known deficiencies in the target mash.

That's what my buddy says....anyway.
Last edited by Dan Call on Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1999 Ford F350 7.3 Super Duty.

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:34 pm

I cook then let the mash sit for a while if it is to thick to reheat ,add enzymes --- will thin out enough to re cook .got that idea from fuel site

Barney Fife
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Mayberry, NC

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Barney Fife » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:17 pm

What's a macanacoll?

Dnd likely meant 'mechanical'.

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:27 pm

thanks Barney if it wasn't for spell check no one would know what I was trying to say

Barney Fife
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1249
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Mayberry, NC

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Barney Fife » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:32 pm

It took me a while to get used to your spelling, Bud, but it's worth learning it; you have a lot of knowledge to share, and you share it a lot! The trick is to actually read your posts out loud, when in doubt; while your spelling doesn't "read" well, when we hear it, it makes sense.

Kinda like "hooked on phonics" works :D
Last edited by Barney Fife on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 8853
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Tater » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:00 pm

lets keep this post on topic
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

Hawke
Distiller
Posts: 2471
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:39 am

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Hawke » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:46 am

It appears to me as though MileHigh's alpha is high temp stuff. I just cooked up 12 pounds corn to 10 gallons of water, added a teaspoon of enzymes after dumping the corn in the pot, never did get thick. After 2+ hours of boiling, I let it cool to around 180*F and after adding another teaspoon, it almost looked like it was boiling again as it converted.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

violentblue
Rumrunner
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:20 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by violentblue » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:31 am

where can I get some?
they got a website?

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:01 am

http://www.milehidistilling.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


If any buddy ask I'm making beer ---I just condense it so it fits in the bottle

violentblue
Rumrunner
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:20 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by violentblue » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:15 am

thanks, and say hello to my new signature
Last edited by violentblue on Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hawke
Distiller
Posts: 2471
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:39 am

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Hawke » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:29 pm

Thanks for this post Dixie,
I've never had such success with my corn. Finishing up my 3rd boil for this batch atm.
I did things a bit different.
I'm using a double boiler,
1) Bring water to a boil
2) Dump in the corn and stir (temp drops back to about 180ish)
3) Add a heaping teaspoon of alpha
4) Allow to cook for 2 hrs, stirring once or twice
5) Kill the heat, allow to cool and once the 'brains' form, add another spoonfull.
Coversion is almost instantanious. :D
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

Uncle Jesse
Site Admin
Posts: 3475
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:00 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Uncle Jesse » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:34 pm

Depending on what you're making, adding backset is a great way to drop your pH to desired levels.
If only the best birds sang, the woods would be silent.

pintoshine
Distiller
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by pintoshine » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:27 pm

When not using enzymes but only using malted barley, I have always premalted for the same reason.
It really helps with the globby problem. Not too much is needed either and it works up until about 170.
That is just when you need the thinning out.
Of course I don't mix in the rest until I have gotten down to 154. Then it all turns to brown syrup in minutes anyway.

I just thought that way the way everyone did it. Maybe I've been around too many commercial distilleries too long.

I-GOR
Swill Maker
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:35 am
Location: Warshington State

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by I-GOR » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:11 pm

pintoshine wrote:When not using enzymes but only using malted barley, I have always premalted for the same reason.
It really helps with the globby problem. Not too much is needed either and it works up until about 170.
That is just when you need the thinning out.
This is the key, brothers. Pint's got it. I've tried cookin cracked corn several times, ended up with a gloppy, stiff mess that scorched my pot and I had to put my wood chisel to the wetstone to get it off the bottom of the ss pot.

I've just tried Pint's premalting technique tonight, twice. It's the ticket.
3.5 lbs cracked corn
2.5 gallons water
2 cups crushed barley malt

at 165 F it was sweet and soft, couldn't stop eating it straight out of the pot (must be sufferin from pika).
Boiled the hell out of it. Before, it got so gloppy I had to stir it continuously, scraping the bottom of the pot furiously, still it stuck bad. Tonight, boiled up liked oyster stew - sweet & milky. did it twice. will do it a third time for 10 or 11 gallons. going to add 2 lbs malt at 150F. will check sg. in the morning.

It's incontravertable, premalting is worth the sacrifice.






"Like one of Jeffer's, crusted with blood and barbaric omens,
Painful to an excess, inhuman as a hawk's cry."

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:56 pm

High temp enzymes work better if you can gt them . I am adding these in the boil .then when cooled add malt
also even though they say you do not have to boil "steamed rolled " grain found much better if you do

I-GOR
Swill Maker
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:35 am
Location: Warshington State

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by I-GOR » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:10 pm

Check the sg this morning, 5.5% potential alcohol at 100 degrees F.
Much better than the last couple of times I tried it (only got 3% or so potential previously). I'm not going to sparge it, I'll just ferment on the grain for now.

Dunder, how does a guy like me get high temp enzymes? The enzymes I've seen on Brewhaus or milehigh website seem to be standard temp enzymes. Is there and industrial source that will sell to "Joe the 'shiner"?

dixiedrifter
Swill Maker
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:59 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by dixiedrifter » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:53 pm

Basically you have to have your own business and buy in industrial quantities before they will mess with you... that means getting ready to plunk down some $$$$ on enzymes.

I've seriously considered doing a re-pack operation where I buy em' repack 'em, and mark up the prices 100%.

punkin
Master Distiller
Posts: 2711
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Northern NSW Oz Trail Ya

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by punkin » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:35 pm

I wouldn't get too exiceted about em, wish i could swap my hitemp for regular :roll:

Hawke
Distiller
Posts: 2471
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:39 am

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Hawke » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:23 am

I-gor,
I use the ones from Mile-hi, they work good for doing the pre-malt.
As you know, starting to get a little cool here in the Evergreen so I'll probably switch to in-house UJSM for the next few months.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:08 am

the idea of high temp enzymes is that you put them in at the beginning of the boil and it thins out as you cook.I still add enzymes/malt when it cools.
got mine as a sample. (regular enzymes work just about as good) regular enzymes 170f (max) high temp 203f(max)(at lest mine)
if you add enzymes bring up the temp to 160f hold there for about 1 hour most will thin then bring up to a boil 15-20 min then cool add more enzymes.
tried steamed rolled oats. they had to be cooked as well. whould not convert without.

T-type
Bootlegger
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:27 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by T-type » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:39 am

Does Ph matter alot? My alpha worked great with your methods. thinned it out real good. reboiled the corn for another 1.5 hours with it always being easy to stir. turned off heat let cool to 160 and threw in another teason of alpha. waited an hour and temp was down to 140 i threw in a teaspoon of gluco. Let sit all night last night, and its not sweet at all..Looks like i got the starch liquification but no sugar conversion.

Did i do anything wrong here? i premalted with the alpha. Only thing i didnt do was make sure the ph was right

Well after 2 hours after throwing in some yeast its starting to bubble. I guess it converted? doesnt really taste sweet like a sugar wash though.

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Fri May 22, 2009 10:30 am

Snooping around the net , found that the old timers mite Had something going by malting in the bag . seams that "hemp" has some
antifungal properties. but I do not thank you can fiend bags made of hemp any more.

HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by HookLine » Fri May 22, 2009 5:25 pm

You can buy hemp cloth in Australia. Though it might be too processed to have any anti-fungal properties left. Farmers here (in some states) are now even allowed to grow it commercially, using approved strains of course (ie ultra low THC content).
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.

dropping_planets
Bootlegger
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: northern new mexico

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by dropping_planets » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:58 pm

i never ph adjust my mash water.....i discovered this by not adding the 5.2 ph buffer and having my most successful mash....

i recently received enzymes from mile hi and am wondering if the gluco is going to work with my skip-a-step method... the package lists a ph of 5 as max for the gluco...would it work at 5.2.... :shock:

violentblue
Rumrunner
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:20 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by violentblue » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:11 am

dropping_planets wrote:i never ph adjust my mash water.....i discovered this by not adding the 5.2 ph buffer and having my most successful mash....

i recently received enzymes from mile hi and am wondering if the gluco is going to work with my skip-a-step method... the package lists a ph of 5 as max for the gluco...would it work at 5.2.... :shock:
I've never had a bad mash using the Gluco and Alpha from mile high, provided I kept it at mashing tempuratures for long enough, thats without ajusting PH.

Frito
Novice
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:31 am

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Frito » Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:49 pm

Sorry for being daft, but what is "pre-malting"? Using grains that have not been malted? Sounded like in the above post that ya'll were suggesting doing a small mash of malted barley to get the enzymes and then adding that to your cooking corn. Is that right? I do a 70% corn, 20% malted barley, 10% rye recipe and have been having a hard time getting sugars to convert, so I'm trying to nail down my process. What I do now is:

heat about 4 gallons of water to about boiling, and add in the corn and turn off the heat. Cover it and let it sit for about an hour. Turns into a solid mass of corn, basically. Then I heat up a mixture of backset and water to about 160. In my water cooler/mash tun, I scoop corn into it and then add in some of the rye and malted barley and then some water/backset and stir. I do this until I am out of corn and grains and get it to a thick soupy consistancy and about 155 degrees. I let that sit for a couple of hours, then scoop into my fermenters, let cool and add yeast. It works, but just don't think I'm getting all I should out of the corn.

Dnderhead
retired
Posts: 13667
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Dnderhead » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:25 pm

pre malting is adding a small amount of malt/enzymes to the grain when cooking, it helps it from getting so thick.
but it sounds like your not cooking your corn long enough ..neads to be gelatinized,(cooked until like pudding)
start cooking corn on slow heat ,,, when it starts getting thick, add some malt /enzymes, keep stirring as it tends to burn. the malt will help thin it out.
this will take about 45- 60 minutes.
cool to 110f (43c) add rest of malt and hold at that temperature for 30min. , then rise temperature slowly to 150f (66c) hold there for 60 minutes.
(all grain has to be crushed/broken)(unmalted grains needs to be cooked not just heated)

Kronk
Novice
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:46 pm

Re: Made an interesting mashing discovery this afternoon...

Post by Kronk » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:21 am

Dnderhead wrote:Grate discovery but a little late for double cook method. Boil corn rest (3-4 hr) (if thick add enzymes ) after 4 hrs re boil for about 1 hr add enzymes
stir the sh## out of it cover leave over night pitch yeast also vigueras stirring helps .macanacol mixers recommended
I like the double boil idea Dnder. How long do you boil for the first time? An hour or longer with a soft boil? Do you ever check the PH?

Post Reply