All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

25 gallons 100% barley mash, 1.072 OG, safale US05 1 gallon starter pitched 18 hours ago, 32 gallon Brute. Fermenter temp is 70.4°f. At about 5 hours after pitching the yeast there was a cap forming, about a half inch foam layer across the top of the wash, like I usually see.
This morning that layer is gone, and the ferment is fizzing like a sugar wash.
Ive never had an all grain ferment behave like this. Small batches or large.
Any ideas why it's acting odd?
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by 8Ball »

I’ve had one of my recent all malt caps drop early and do that with US05. My pH was at 3.76. I added a buffer, stirred it up good and the cap came back. Finished dry.

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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

Just checked my pH and its 5.03. Checked the meter against my tap water and its reading in tap water is consistent with its normal reading and city reports, at 6.9.
Just gonna let it play out. The oyster shell is doing its job.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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Let us know how it goes did you do ANYTHING different in the process are the surrounding temperatures a factor
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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Durhommer wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:48 am Let us know how it goes did you do ANYTHING different in the process are the surrounding temperatures a factor
There's nothing different from the last 3 of these I've done aside from the OG was a bit higher. Usually get 1068 for OG not 1072. The ambient temp in the garage isn't really relevant, the temp of the fermenting wort is. Its been in the ideal range for the yeast.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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Batches of malt are not always exactly the same. My guess is you had a drink in one hand while you were weighing out your grain and inadvertently 'put in a little more for Santa'. That would account for your slightly higher S.G.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:29 am Batches of malt are not always exactly the same. My guess is you had a drink in one hand while you were weighing out your grain and inadvertently 'put in a little more for Santa'. That would account for your slightly higher S.G.
While plausible, I han not had any libations. I do however get easily distracted and may have weighed out 1 or 2 too many 4# scoops, that accounts for the increase in the OG and having to add the extra water to get to a reasonable OG. My normal protocol has been 46# grain and 23 gallons of water. I may have been thinking dreamily of the bourbon mash I want to make and weighed out 50# of barley.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

Problem solved.
Last night on a hunch I removed my oyster shell satchel from the fermenter, and within 2.5 hours the fizzing subsided, and the cop started to form. This morning there is a nice thick cap.
I'm still unsure why it behaved this way, as I've used shell in every single ferment I've made since my first sugar wash stalled.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by 8Ball »

I doubt removing the shells had anything to do with it.

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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by StillerBoy »

Did you take the time to check the Ph after removing the oyster shells..

There are many reason why I don't use shells for a buffering agent.. but the main one is they are to slow to react and never stop reacting when they should.. as some yeast generate an acidic environment quicker than others and also depending on the recipe used..

A nice Ph level is 4.5 or less say 4.. any levels outside of that range will have an effect on the fermentation activity.. and all ferment behave very much alike, be a wash or a mash as related to the acidic creation..

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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

Sb, no I didn't. I was actually surprised to see such a quick reaction. The PH yesterday morning was 5.03, now I wish I would have.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by StillerBoy »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:01 am no I didn't.
Missed opportunity to learn something new in mashing..

A stable fermenting temp and Ph are high on the list that the yeast require to do their thing in an efficient manner.. deviate and issues arise..

I know that 1 degree lower than their preferred fermenting temp, even for just 12 hrs, will cause them to take an extra day to ferment, and if missed for 24 hrs, will take considerably longer and will not clear out properly also..

Mars
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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StillerBoy wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:28 am
A stable fermenting temp and Ph are high on the list that the yeast require to do their thing in an efficient manner.. deviate and issues arise...

I know that 1 degree lower than their preferred fermenting temp, even for just 12 hrs, will cause them to take an extra day to ferment, and if missed for 24 hrs, will take considerably longer and will not clear out properly also..

Mars
Hey Mars,

I've followed this advice on all of my all-grain ferments, but I did something a little differently on this current ferment, which was to use citric acid (had no backset) in the mash and skipped the oyster shells. This (bourbon) ferment is just finishing up after 13 days (normally 7-8days) and the pH has dropped to around 3.6. What, if any, flavor impact do you think these ferment conditions created?

As always, thanks for your wisdom.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:28 am
Deplorable wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:01 am no I didn't.
Missed opportunity to learn something new in mashing..

A stable fermenting temp and Ph are high on the list that the yeast require to do their thing in an efficient manner.. deviate and issues arise..

I know that 1 degree lower than their preferred fermenting temp, even for just 12 hrs, will cause them to take an extra day to ferment, and if missed for 24 hrs, will take considerably longer and will not clear out properly also..

Mars
You are so right.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by StillerBoy »

Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:48 am As always, thanks for your wisdom.
Thanks TB for the compliment, but we are hear to learn from each other if we allow it to happen..
Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:48 am This (bourbon) ferment is just finishing up after 13 days (normally 7-8days) and the pH has dropped to around 3.6. What, if any, flavor impact do you think these ferment conditions created?
My personal view on your ferment.. I don't take the longer ferment period will alter the flavor much.. where I do think the flavor gets alter is in the stripping phase on a long ferment..

When a fermentation environment is not to the liking of the yeast being use, their reaction to their disliking is shown by fermenting length, which is turn cause clearing issue.. it's in the clearing issue that the flavor is changed when heated with all that fine sediment that is allow in the boiler at stripping time.. overall the flavor is only slightly alter in my view, but still alter somewhat from a clear clean finish ferment..

This is what I have experience with sugar washes anyways which why I've been a believer having a clear ferment as possible.. done a 7 months experiment on that plus different amount of sugar, and overall there is some flavor difference.. but one has to be astute also to what you are looking or wanting in the end product.. it was long but interesting..

My two cents TB, hope it helps..

Mars
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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Sb is a good helper
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

Getting a grip on large batch fermenting and temp control has been a challenge for me. The active ferment generates a lot more heat than a small one. Thus trying to maintain the ideal temp range has been a challenge on a 23 gallon mash in a garage with 20 to 30 degree temp swings. Aside from the subject issue, this ferment is the first one that has stayed in the ideal temp range for the yeast strain so far, and only varying by no more than 4 degrees F. The low last night was 32F, and the high today was 64. The fermenter has stayed between 69 and 73. It's like caring for an infant wrapping it up in reflectix at night, and removing it in the morning. Im about ready to create a giant copper coil to recirculate water from a tank with a fish tank heater in it.
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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Not a bad idea
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by StillerBoy »

I do understand the issue with fermenting temp behavior different between a 6.5 gal and a 23 gal as I do of 20 gal ferments.. but temp behavior is the same just managing it differently..

A variation of 4 degrees is a wide range to the yeast, especially if it occur each day..

Here's how I work it out in order to create stable temp at least for the first 3 days, after it does not matter much as the fermentation should be finished, and that apply both to sugar wash and AG mash..

I will relate this to a sugar wash using bread yeast, but the principal apply to all wash/mashes.. it starts with the pitching temp, for bread yeast I pitch at 95*F, pitch on average 10 gr of yeast per gal, allowing the yeast to proof itself by sprinkling them evenly across the surface for 45 - 50 min, then lightly breaking up the yeast by lightly taping in the yeast and allowing them another 5 min, then giving it good stir for a few min, putting the cap on and allowing them to do their thing..

At this point the fermenter is not insulated as the temp is still will above the 85*F preferred level.. from past experience I know that at a given ambient temp it will take 4 - 5 hrs (6.5 gal)for the temp to come down to 85*F.. in the mean time a heat belt is installed and the insulation is ready.. when the temps drops down to the ideal temp, the heat belt is started and fermenter insulated.. again from experience I know that is will take about 4 - 6 hrs before the heat belt will affect the fermentation temp.. the heat belt are setup on a dimmer switch which is preset to maintain the 85* I want, and will stay at that temp until the fermentation is 2/3 done (about 2 days) at which point the temp will start to drop on it own due to less activity by the yeast.. but this drop in temp is not all that important at that stage, cause the ferment is almost done (if one check the SG when that occurs it at the 1.000 or less) which at that point one can give the wash a good degassing, and that well help to finish off and start the clearing process..

With a 20 gal batch, the process is the very same, except when to start the heat belt and install the insulation.. and it will behave and finish in the same manner and time as the 6.5 gal batch..

Hope that help understand what happen and you may set yourself up.. also if you have a period where the ambient temp swings like you state, you may want to build a cabinet to ferment in.. I don't have experience with such wide range swings, but if I were in such a position that what I would consider.. also it a good idea to start a wash or mash always at the same time of the day, before it become much easier to manage or learn how to manage with a stable start time..

Mars
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Zeotropic »

Deplorable wrote:Getting a grip on large batch fermenting and temp control has been a challenge for me. The active ferment generates a lot more heat than a small one. Thus trying to maintain the ideal temp range has been a challenge on a 23 gallon mash in a garage with 20 to 30 degree temp swings. Aside from the subject issue, this ferment is the first one that has stayed in the ideal temp range for the yeast strain so far, and only varying by no more than 4 degrees F. The low last night was 32F, and the high today was 64. The fermenter has stayed between 69 and 73. It's like caring for an infant wrapping it up in reflectix at night, and removing it in the morning. Im about ready to create a giant copper coil to recirculate water from a tank with a fish tank heater in it.
I found this on amazon.
I was thinking stainless steel might be better to keep from putting too much copper in the mash.


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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Durhommer »

Once again mars drops knowledge
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

Post by Deplorable »

That's helpful Mars. Thank you. While I usually get to start the ferment during the same time of day, it works out to be when the temp is dropping this time of year with shorter days.
I'll take note of this when I begin my bourbon mash over the Christmas break.
What I did for this ferment as far as insulation was to leave all the wrap on from mashing, and cooled to pitching temp with a wort chiller. Then, knowing the ambient temp would drop as the ferment rose, I removed the blankets but left the reflectix wrap on the sides. This morning with the cap, I knew the temp would continue to rise, so I pulled the reflectix.
Based on your post, I need to also close the range on my inkbird ot only a 1 degree temp drop from ideal and let the heater cycle as needed.
I assume the heater placement would be best under the brute rather than wrapped around the sides. I have my probe submerged in the beer, about 8 inches below the surface. Since heat rises better than it radiates sideways through the mass, below is better, yes?
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Re: All Grain mash acting like a sugar wash?

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It's a matter of understand what is best for the yeast, and work at reach that point and making it stable..

You have an inkbird.. wish I had one sometime, but the dimmer switch work well enough for me, as the setup has been in use for over 10 yrs, but one of these days I'll break down and get some..

As to the placement of the heat belt on my are on the side just off the bottom.. for the 6.5 gal are about 3" of the bottom on the outside.. for the 20 gal are about 4.5 - 5" of the bottom.. as to the setting the range on the inkbird, set at the temp you want with the least fluctuation the unit will allow..

If I were using inkbird probe, I would be using them on the outside against the ferment position under the heat belt.. I think you would get a quick response in that position from the probe by giving you less of a variation.. something to take and see..

I always try to see it from the point of view of what the yeast want or like.. then work at designing or adapting something to make it happen.. and it seem to have paid off as all my ferment are done 3.5 days or less and are clearing by then also..

We most people get in the hobby thinking the wrong way, and it become difficult to change them.. creating the recipe then the wash is the more important that learning to run a still.. the fermentation makes the product, the still is just an alcohol / water separator in a sense.. yeah there are different design of still, but once vapor behavior is understood, they pretty much run all the same..

Mars
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