Building my first still - 2" VM Project

[Bob Loblaw]

New member here - planning on building a 2" VM still out of copper. I'm in the process of ordering/collecting the bits - and thought I would post my plans here to see if there was any feedback from the collected wisdom of the membership here. I have done a lot of reading here, on other forums, and a couple of books - but am sure I still have have lots to learn.

Here's a quick outline of my plan

Boiler
- Using a 7.75gal pony keg with Sanke fitting (what I could find on CL)
- 5500 watt element with 30A/220V service
- Stilldragon DIY kit for temperature control. I am also adding an ammeter/voltmeter to the box.
- planning on brazing/soldering a 1" Copper NPTF fitting into the keg to install the element

Column - I am following the plans that Hookline posted a while back - except for using a smaller-sized takeoff in the tee
- 42" bottom section; 2" stainless sanitary fittings soldered in top and bottom
- 8" reflux condensor. I tried to make one of these myself - but ended up with a lot of mangled tubing as I think what I had was too thin walled. I decided to order one off ebay to save myself some grief.
- 2 x 2 x 1" Tee into a 1 x 3/4 reducer
- 3/4 Stainless gate valve
- 25" leibig made from 3/4" over 1/2" tubing
- Thinking about trying lava rock as packing, at least to start

That's the basic idea. But I am a total newbie and at this point I still have latitude to make changes, as most of the stuff is coming via UPS/Fedex and I haven't cut anything yet. Would love any thoughts as to if I seem to be on the right track. As I mentioned in my intro post, I'm looking for a setup that will allow me to run both neutrals and flavored-spirits. What I have read suggests this is a good way to go.

I'll post some pictures as I start to make progress

[pounsfos]

post a picture of the design for us so we can get a better idea

it sounds good but the 3/4 reducers worry me abit

we like pictures, it puts us all on the same page (pun intended)

[Bob Loblaw]

Pounfos -

Thanks for the comment. My plan was to build it just as the drawing from Hookline shows - except that I am using a 2 x 2 x 1" Tee instead of a 2 x 2 x 2" tee as shown in the diagram. I read another thread where HL had suggested that a 1" takeoff was sufficient

Still diagram from Hookline

hookline vm still.jpg (46.67 KiB) Viewed 7713 times

[DAD300]

A 1" takeoff is sufficient, but limits the takeoff/reflux to min reflux ratio of 4:1. Thus limiting your ability to ever get a 1:1 reflux.

So for greater versatility...take off the same size as the column is better.

More discussion here.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=41579

[Bob Loblaw]

DAD - thanks for the comment. I'm still digesting the theory on RR. Is the limit determined by the area of the column:takeoff? And does it primarily affect speed or is there an implicit cap on purity? Sorry if these are total newb questions. I read the theory page (http://homedistiller.org/theory/refluxdesign/rr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) but perhaps naively thought the chart showed a pretty flat return on RR between 1:1 and 10:1.

I had read the thread you linked before, but obviously it didn't all land! I'll have to do some thinking about how I want to proceed. I've ordered a bunch of stuff already, so turning back is a bit of a pain - but I do like the simplicity of your design. hmmmmm...

Edit: one more set of questions for you DAD - I just read through the whole thread again. I am liking the simplicity of this idea..

To implement the sliding condenser design in copper:
- would I run 2" from the tee through the takeoff elbow, and then put the reducer?
- From there can I step down from 2"--> 1/2" --> liebig condensor? (Just looking at the fittings at PEXsupply, that seems to be the way to get there with the fewest parts).

[Bob Loblaw]

Here's a second try, incorporating DAD's feedback. This is a bit of a simplified version - missing some of the connectors and such - but I am liking it better. Fewer parts, fewer connections, and easier to convert from VM-->pot still mode

Second option for design

Design 2.jpg (32.13 KiB) Viewed 7694 times

[DAD300]

The reflux ratio is determined by the area of the takeoff branch vs the area of the column in a pure VM.

Much simpler and better...

Shorten the horizontal on the take off to min to get from column into elbow. That long horizontal is of no use. You can still get away from the column, for collection, by rotating the 90 degree elbow to say 30 degrees off vertical. Or a rotatable joint going into leibig.

If you have a 2" take off on a 2" column, you can achieve a 1:1 reflux to take off ratio. This gives you the ability to increase the takeoff and or lower your ABV by just raising the reflux coil above the take off.

But if you have a 1" take off on a 2" column, you're minimum reflux is fixed at 4:1. You loose most of the ability to adjust reflux. I'd say with 2" x 42" of column and a 1" takeoff, you'd be making nothing but azeo.

With either, your max reflux is still 100% (valve shut). In both cases you will be able to block the takeoff completely.

Pot still would then be, just move your 2" "T" down onto keg.

Now as for VM to pot still...please read this...http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... ct+whiskey

Is this all to sit on a keg? Still got your keg spear? Use it for a Product Condenser... http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=43787

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks for the continued guidance. I will shorten up that offset pipe. Will it work ok if I don't solder the 90 elbow on, so I can adjust the angle of the downtube? I think it will have to be turned more if I run just the head (in pot still mode) vs. running with the column. Still waiting for UPS man to bring the copper so I have time to think about that.

As for the boiler - yes, this will be sitting on a keg - but it's a 1/4 barrel so the keg spear is pretty short. Not going to work for a leibig!

On that note, I have made some progress on my temp controller. It's all ready to go - except for the plug fitting

I used the Stilldragon DIY kit. Putting it together wasn't too tough if you have a little bit of electrical knowledge. Pretty good value, IMHO.
At some point, I am going to add a cheap digital ammeter/voltmeter - once it arrives from china. That's why there's a twist fitting on the white line, so I can tap in the ammeter.

[Maritimer]

Bob Loblaw, wasn't he the CEO or something of Loblaw's? Hi, my name is Bob-blah-blah, how do you do?

M

[Bob Loblaw]

The lawyer on Arrested Development. Famous for "Bob Loblaw's Law Blog"

I loved his commercials. "Why should you go to jail for something someone else noticed?"

[DAD300]

Yes you could probably get away with not soldering the 90 deg elbow, wrap the male portion of the joint with PTFE tape and jam it together...expect to have to support it some other way and keep it tight. A triclamp or a copper union would be better.

[Bob Loblaw]

...expect to have to support it some other way and keep it tight. A triclamp or a copper union would be better.

A triclamp. Doh! That's what I will do. Answer was staring me in the face! I looked at 2" copper unions and they a) seem to be half brass, and b) appear to cost twice as much as two stainless ferrules + a clamp + a PFTE gasket.

Most of the copper trinkets arrived in the mail today. I am anxious to get started fitting all of this together.

[DAD300]

With copper unions, usually the external nut is brass to prevent sticking. The vapor would not touch the brass. But I'm all for triclamp.

[Bob Loblaw]

Am/voltmeter arrived today from China - so I got the temp controller up and running. Tested it on a lamp on a 110 circuit, and amazingly, I seem to have wired it correctly first try. I think I am into this for $75. Not bad considering the prices of some of the commercial offerings that do the same thing

[Bob Loblaw]

Finished up my leibig today. 25" long, 3/4" over 1/2" copper. Not the prettiest soldering job I have ever done - but it should do the trick

[Bob Loblaw]

More progress. I soldered the stainless ferrules into the 2" copper.

This was super easy, and all it required was a MAP torch and some of this:

Staybrite solder kit

Roughen both pieces, brush on the flux, assemble, and then wrap a single ring of solder around the pipe in the narrow gap between the pipe and the fitting. When the torch gets it hot enough the solder will melt and flow into the joint. Takes maybe 90 seconds per joint. You may have to turn the pipe slightly as you heat your way around - but it is so easy and relatively inexpensive I am not sure why people are recommending easy flanges. It's a $5 SS ferrule and a $10 soldering kit (via ebay)

Finished joint

[Bob Loblaw]

Question for DAD300 -

I ordered a 60" stainless gas connector for my condensor. Was supposed to be 1/2" OD - and I thought that would work for me. It arrived today, I wound it up as tight as I could, and can barely fit it into my 2" column. There is no way I am going to be able to slip it up and down to use as a valve! I measured it and it appears to be more like 5/8" OD. 3 x 5/8" doesn't leave much room inside a 2" ID tube.

Do you have a recommendation for what size works? Should I have ordered the 3/8" OD? I can only get that 48" long, but I guess it should be sufficient to knock down the vapors?

For reference, here's the gas pipe I am talking about: http://www.zorotools.com/g/Stainless%20 ... /00054174/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[DAD300]

If that was 60" long...you have way too many coils, you only need a few coils (4-5) and longer tails to reach out of column. Fewer coils will let it slip easier.

Another great part, you haven't ruined the 5/8". Wind the coils less perpendicular to the column.

I went and got a piece of 5/8" and it works in a 2" SS which is smaller than your 2" copper. It slips easily.

The coil doesn't have to be wound perfectly perpendicular it could be more parallel and can be single loop.....down an up.

The min coil dia for one of these condensers should be 3 x the tube o.d. 3 x 5/8's is 1 7/8". 1/2" would be 1-1/2", 3/8" would be 1-1/8" if tight.

3/8" o.d. would have been fine, but 1/2" o.d. would be more than enough.

[DAD300]

I'm still laughing but intrigued. You stuffed a lot of condenser in that column. 60" of 58" would probably handle 10,000watts.

Show me a pic before you uncoil it...

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks DAD. Happy to be the source of some humor . Getting that much of the coil in there was one thing. Getting it out may be another. I'll post a pic once I wrench it out of there. One good outcome was that I complained to the vendor about the size differential, and they refunded the payment but told me to keep the item. So I guess I saved a bit of coin on this one!

[Bob Loblaw]

OK, so here is the second attempt

And here is the original attempt (which I basically had to screw into the column)

A little different to say the least! Is that going to be sufficient to knock down 4500 watts? I suppose it will be more like 1000 watt when the column is up to temp.

Nice how much easier this is to work with than that #$^$#(* copper! It forgives mistakes...

[DAD300]

Yeah...eight coils would have been better, overkill to say the least, but not if it didn't fit!

It will easily cover 4,500watts. I add a wad of scrubbie near the top. It increases the area and keeps bugs out. The long tails are a bonus as they add a stress relief for the hose when it gets warm.

There's mine for a 2". Looks about the same. It was a 36" length.

FREE...FREEEEEEE...well that's too perfect. Glad you found a standup vendor also.

Seriously, you can use that tube as a reflux coil in you next 5 stills, even with a move to 3" or 4" column.

Were you surprised you could uncoil it so easy?

[Bob Loblaw]

Yeah, that tubing will take a lot of abuse. When I compare to trying to wind a coil from that crappy 1/4" copper tube - I can't believe anyone bothers.

Just waiting for my replacement 2" Tee and Elbow to arrive from PexSupply and I think I will have almost all the parts for the still. Then I am just waiting for the boiler element guard, which is on back order. I think maybe week after next I will start fermenting sugar wash...

[Bob Loblaw]

One point of clarification for anyone else out there who reads this and wants to order stainless flex hose for their Reflux condenser:

Easiest brand to find is Watts-Dormont
BUT - the nominal OD given for the product is misleading. I ordered 1/2 OD and it was 5/8". They must measure the inner part of the tube, not at the ridges. If you really want 1/2" OD, you need to order marked at 3/8". Model number will start with "10" instead of "20"

My $0.02

[superdaveva]

I built the same controller, drill holes top and bottom to keep it from overheating , trust me. S d

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks SD. I have holes drilled into the sides. You found top and bottom needed too? I was thinking about a fan on the bottom blowing on the heat sink, but couldn't find one thin enough

I did make some more progress. Got the boiler fitted with a ferrule for the element guard; and most of the column soldered up. Still waiting for that back-ordered element guard and two more ferrules that are in the same order that I will use to attach the arm. Rest of the stuff is ready to go!

[superdaveva]

That's good,didn't see it,don't think it maters where, I don't use a fan. S d

[Bob Loblaw]

Put together my parrot today. It's going to run right off of the Liebig. There's going to be a vent in the last bit of pipe that connects the two so that it won't bubble over. The soldering still ain't pretty - but with my skills, if I get through a dozen joints with no leaks, I am ecstatic!

I added the valve off the side because I wanted to be able to run the fores out of the valve, and collect through the beak. Although I was thinking, does it make more sense to fill up the parrot, get an ABV reading, and then empty through the valve? Would this help to reduce smearing? The parrot holds about 10 oz., so if I went that way, that would be how much I'd collect in each container.

[DAD300]

It's very pretty.

Yes, dumping the parrot would be better...not using it would be perfect!

The first ten ounce jar will be fores and heads at 95%. It's trash. The second will be mostly heads and maybe the start of hearts, probably trash. The third will be a little heads and a lot of hearts, keeper!...

Everything that comes off this still, in reflux mode, run correctly will be 95%, until unusable tails start and it will slowly diminish down 90%-85%-80%-75%-... and in pot still mode will be 58%-55%-52%,...

It will be very predictable & repeatable, and with a 7.5 boiler very short run.

[Bob Loblaw]

Thx DAD. Very reassuring! I see your point about not using it. I had time and a bit of extra copper, so I figured what the heck. And I can just leave the valve open, and straight through. But I can't wait to get this thing fired up. Spending my days waiting for the fedex man to bring that last package of parts...

as for that 7.5 boiler - It's gonna have to do! I found out I can't add a 220 circuit in the garage, so I am going to be maxed at 1500 watts. It won't be that short...