My first shotgun reflux build.

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McTasty07
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My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Hello HD,
Well it is time for me to start my build, after a very excited fail into this hobby. What I'm going for is a cm shotgun reflux build. The parts I ha e ordered so far is 4ft of sanitary stainless in a 24" section and two 12" sections. The top two will be the 12" sections. With the very top being the shotgun column condenser. The take off will be 1/2 wrapped with 1" stainless. Material wise. Everything will be stainless aside from... The tubes running through the shot gun will be copper and the 1/2 line will be copper. To monitor the column temps I have ordered auto meter water gauges (yes for a car lol) for packing I was planning on only using copper scrubbers, due to the fact I found to many conflicting ideas about a mix or scrubbers and rashig ring.(please chime in if you have an opinion on that) the boiler is a 15.5 gallon keg with a few drains on it coolest thing though is the control box I will be putting on it that will have power controller, master kill switch, along with the gauges stated earlier. The heat I have two 5500w elements I will be running only one with the control. For cooling I'm just using a 55gal barrel the will have a radiator along with 500gph high lift pump. The pump will have a two way valve so I can separately control flow to Liebig and column. Unless I find I need two pumps after fist run. This will take about two weeks to get everything out together so I will be posting pics as they come. I just wanted to go ahead and get this thread started to get any feedback you all have early. I think that's everything for now.
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still_stirrin
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by still_stirrin »

What diameter of column?

Two x 5.5kW is a lot of power, enough to drive a 4" column at least. Well, you certainly won't be short power for your boiler.

Copper scrubbies will work for you. It is good to have some copper in the ascending path to aid sulfide removal.

It sounds like an interesting build. Post pictures when you can.
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still_stirrin
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by still_stirrin »

I hope the auto gages have the sensitivity to give you the degree of measurement you'll want to observe. I believe analog measurement is good, but it will be more of a reactive indication of the temperatures, ie - slow reaction time from temperature change to the display reading. Most use thermocouple measurement devices due to their precision and highly sensitive reactions.

Another thought too, is that if you find that the 5.5 kW elements are such overkill for your column, you could easily replace them with a lower wattage element, 4.5 kW or even 2 kW ULWD for example. Your controller will still regulate them fine. They would be controlled more in the midband of adjustment rather than in the lower 20% of the power range. The on/off 5.5 kW element would get you to boil (for a 12 gallon run) very quickly.

I'm interested too in how you'll build the dephlag....copper tubes in a stainless spool sounds interesting.
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McTasty07
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

I believe the gauges will have the sensitivity I am lookin for, auto meter is what I have used In the past with race engines and I have always loved them. Of course the probe will be In a thermocouple attaches In the column. I was going to do low point high point In column one top side of boiler and one right before product condenser. With the elements, I know it's a lot of power but my thinking was if I could keep my elements on their low end power I would get better control and longer life, which I could be absolutely wrong about that. The column is 2" but I could still do a 3" I have the stainless pipe sitting In my cart on Amazon, so I still may change my mind. The benefit I see with the 3" is the column condenser would have more surface area but other than that I was figuring 2" column would do what I needed it to do.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

The reason I'm going with such a mix of copper and stainless is basically to creat a stil the can be maintained much easier and be able to keep it as clean as possible. I wanted some copper to (like you said) take some of the off flavors out. So I figure with copper scrubbers and copper product condenser that will be just enough to do that. Plus have three sections I. My column will make disassembly and cleaning a lot easier.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Very rough drawing of how it will look.
[url=http://s394.photobucket.com/user/Mctast ... y.jpg.html][img]http:/
midlife-u-turn
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by midlife-u-turn »

I have a single 5500w element on a 13 gal and a 3 in column. I've never used the element over 1/2 power on my controller and it cranks out the heat. My set up is all stainless so I just use the all copper mesh rolls in the column instead of raschig rings or other packing. Just throwing that out there it sounds like you're well on your way.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by Danespirit »

+1 Still stirrin

5,5 KW is a lot of power.

Scrubbies and Rashig rings work good!
I have a SS scrubbie or two at the bottom of my column, rest was filled with Rashig rings.
Same column i had filled with marbles + scrubbies to retain them.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Thanks mid life I will take that into account, are you running off 220 or 110? @ Dane have you noticed if equilibrium is archived easier with a mix or no difference at all?
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by Danespirit »

I haven't actually stopped the time on it, but i will assume it was about same timeframe. (column insulated)
As i only run a relativly short column i can't reach azeotrope with that kind of packing, Rashic rings had a advantage over marbles.
I i could get my hands on some resonable SSP, i would surely prefer this and easy reach azeotrope.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by midlife-u-turn »

McTasty07 wrote:Thanks mid life I will take that into account, are you running off 220 or 110? @ Dane have you noticed if equilibrium is archived easier with a mix or no difference at all?
Sorry I knew I'd forget to add that - I use 220v and the only time I've ever fired it all the way on was to boil water. I may baby it a little but I put it at about 50% and by the time I get everything ready it's up and running. My last two runs were some all grain and molasses rum and could only run it at about 40% due to some foaming. In most stripping runs at about 50% power I've got a serious steady stream going and I think if I'd try around 75% my liebig couldn't keep up.
This is the copper I use in the column:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001I ... UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I put a series of loose rolls in the column and I can add or subtract the number of rolls depending on the run.
I can get 5-6 rolls in the 3" column out of this 100' roll.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile, parts are finally starting to get in so I will be posting pics of progress very soon. Got a very important question though. So my idea of having a copper column confessor was a bust, after many attempts I found I could not get a solid weld between the ss and the copper-solution- ss bulk head fittings so the inside will have compression fittings holding the copper tubes (bad thing about this) I couldn't get the volume I was looking for. So what I was able to come up with is I will have 4-3/8 copper tubes and 4-1/4 ss tubes with makes my surface area around 1"9/16 so my question is will that be to much of a restriction where I could possibly build up pressure on the boiler side of the still. Thanks in advance
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still_stirrin
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by still_stirrin »

McTasty07 wrote:...Got a very important question though....I will have 4-3/8 copper tubes and 4-1/4 ss tubes....will that be to much of a restriction where I could possibly build up pressure on the boiler side of the still...
If this is for a deflag (reflux condenser), then the 3/8" diameter tubes are already (marginally) too small. The 1/4" diameter tubes ARE too small.

The deflag condenser is installed IN the vapor path where the reflux must condense and drain back down the column. If the tubes are too small, especially for higher powered boilers (like yours) the condenser will flood and choke the vapor flow. This would result in blowby and very poor reflux performance. Whether or not its dangerous depends on how much power you push through it.

Most often the deflag vapor tubes are 1/2", 3/4", or even larger on big flutes. For a 2" diameter column, I'd recommend 1/2" diameter vapor tubes and they will likely need to be 8" long, possibly longer to handle the higher power operation. If you have a 3" diameter column, the use 3/4" diameter vapor tubes (better).

To be effective, the vapor needs to flow slow enough to transfer its heat to the vapor tubes (conduction). With small diameter tubes, the vapor speeds up and efficiency drops.

Now, if the condenser you're building is for the product, then a shotgun with 3/8" diameter tubes is good. But I'd recommend using all the same diameter tubing (3/8"). A 7-tube configuration is very effective at knock down. Definitely, the 1/4" diameter tubing is too small for vapor condensation...it would work as a liquid product cooler, however.

But bear in mind that the same mechanism applies to the shotgun as the deflag....slower vapor speeds allow better contact time with the vapor tube walls netting more efficient condensation.
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Last edited by still_stirrin on Wed May 27, 2015 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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McTasty07
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Thanks for the reply, so the condensor is 12" I will test to see how many 1/2 lines I can Install. Another question. I have all of this 3/8 tubing which is in 24" sections if I made a 5 tube product condensor will that effectively knock down the vapor
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by still_stirrin »

McTasty07 wrote:...Another question. I have all of this 3/8 tubing which is in 24" sections if I made a 5 tube product condensor will that effectively knock down the vapor...
I'd try to add 2 more of the 3/8" tubes for your product condenser. They (7 tubes) will fit inside a 1 1/2" shell. A 5-tube arrangement would fit inside a 1 1/4" shell, but not in a 1" shell. But what is desired is more tubes in a shorter shotgun...it will give you more surface area and the vapor won't have to travel the longer distance to transfer its heat (and condense).

I would also suggest baffles on the shell-side of the condenser. Flowing the water in a spiral through the shell will improve its ability to carry the heat out of the vapor tubes.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Btw you kinda threw a monkey wrench into my whole plan lol but I really appreciate it. On another note I think it might have been a silver lining because I think another shotgun condensor would actually look really good and may be a little more effective I appreciate your input
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humbledore
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by humbledore »

The comparable SD parts are 21" shotgun product condenser with 7-3/8" tubes (this would knock down anything you throw at it), and an 8" reflux condenser with 3-5/8" tubes. However their reflux condenser is too short, you are better off going with the 12" that you already have planned.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by humbledore »

I also run two elements on 110V...is this what you're proposing? Because if you are going 220V that reflux condenser will be undersized even at 12".
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

Thanks humbledore I will do some tinkering between 5/8 and 1/2 so I'm assuming the original question was my concern of pressure build up. I'm assuming that will not be a factor?
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by still_stirrin »

humbledore wrote:The comparable SD parts are 21" shotgun product condenser with 7-3/8" tubes (this would knock down anything you throw at it), and an 8" reflux condenser with 3-5/8" tubes. However their reflux condenser is too short, you are better off going with the 12" that you already have planned.
Homerun humbledore! I totally agree.

But I was thinking that 4 (or even 5) x 1/2" ID tubes would fit into a 2" diameter deflag, such that you might get away with an 8" length. But, your obsevations may prove correct...that even 8" is too short.
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Last edited by still_stirrin on Wed May 27, 2015 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

humbledore wrote:I also run two elements on 110V...is this what you're proposing? Because if you are going 220V that reflux condenser will be undersized even at 12".
Yes they will be ran off 110v
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by McTasty07 »

One thing I don't understand maybe you all can help, your comment about being undersized with to much power if you control the temp of the boiler why does it matter what type of power input your running
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by humbledore »

Your reflux condenser should be sized to knock down everything your elements can throw at it. Think of them as a pair. So you're running essentially 2 1375W elements for a total of 2750W. That's what you need to size the condenser to knock down. Yes you can run it slower but why have the extra element then? The best bet is to oversize your condenser rather than undersize it.

I know a 2" wide condenser 8" long with 3 5/8" tubes in it is too small, because I tried it. It is too small for me, I run about 3375W total. It was not knocking down vapors at 50-60% of that. So that's from actual experience. An alternative is to create an internal coil of CSST which is what I did. It will knock down everything I throw at it.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by HDNB »

In case it helps...i was just yappin' on a liebig thread about the same stuff and showed up here.
I use a 4 x 1/2" in a 2" jacket 20" long for my PC and can overpower it with 17+amps on a 220vac 5500w element.
assume it would do the same as a RC.
almost gets it all (17 out of the 21 amps i can pour through it) but not quite.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: My first shotgun reflux build.

Post by still_stirrin »

McTasty07 wrote:....if you control the temp of the boiler....
You CAN'T control the "temperature" of your boiler. The temperature is determined by the saturation temperature of the liquid mixture, which is ever changing as you distill the alcohols off.

You control the RATE at which it boils (in grams per second) by the amount of heat you put into the boiler. But, you have to remove that heat in the product condenser when you change the phase back to a liquid from a vapor. It's a physical law of thermodynamics.

So, too much heat puts up too much vapor (grams per second, remember?) and then you need lots of condenser power to knock it down (condense). But, if the diameter of the vapor is too small, the vapor will be traveling fast (and accelerating as the static pressure drops...compressible fluid, remember?).

So, the condenser relies on "contact time" to transfer the heat out by conduction through the vapor tube. Therefore, surface area (pi x diameter x length) is key to conductive path. But you CAN improve the efficiency by turbulation of the water jacket as well as increasing the vapor contact surface with scrubbies, or internal vanes, or multiple tubes (but remember the total area of contact is important).
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