First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

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Mikey-moo
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First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

I'm starting this thread to help keep track of my first batch of whisky using liquid malt extract. So far I've added:

26L water
6.3kg LME
100ml of home made buttermilk culture

I plan to let this sit for 24 hours to bring the pH down before pitching the yeast tomorrow. I had to split the batch between two fermenters to leave a good 5 inches of head space in each... hopefully I won't get any foaming / overflowing issues!

SG of about 1.065. Fingers crossed!
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by just sayin »

Very interesting! I am looking forward to hearing about your progress. Details on your buttermilk culture?
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

just sayin wrote:Very interesting! I am looking forward to hearing about your progress. Details on your buttermilk culture?
Hmmm details... ok...
About a month or so ago I had some double cream that I hadn't used up and was going past it's date. It was a pint or so I think. I put it in a mason jar and shook the living bejeesus out of it until it turned into butter and buttermilk. I salted and ate the butter, but kept the buttermilk in the mason jar in the fridge. I almost threw it out after a couple of weeks but it smelled ok, just quite sour. As I've been looking to play with a lacto ferment for a while, I thought I'd keep it around and use it for this.

Might work, might not, either way it should be fun.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

24 hours in and just pitched some bakers yeast into both FV's. That was about an hour ago and it's just starting to get foam on top and bubbles out the airlock :-)
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

The hydrometer has dropped a bit - so that's a good sign, and the buttermilk infection has formed a sort of scummy film across the top which appears to be quite happy collecting bubbles.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Snackson »

I lucked into around 200# of free pilsner LME last year and made up a batch. The FG was higher and the next go round I am going to bring up to temp and use some enzymes to help convert some of it to see if I could get it to go lower. Had to run it very very slowly. I have a gallon of it aging on some charred oak right now. The smell is amazing and the malt flavor really comes through.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by goose eye »

Gonna wanna puke

So I'm tole
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

This morning it's less scummy. Just got floaty bits in it instead :-)
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by bilgriss »

Be careful running. Goose Eye is correct. Malt extract is mashed at a higher temperature than is typical for a whiskey mash, in order to produce more dextrins for mouth feel and provide some residual sweetness. Run carefully or it will puke.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

Much head space, low and slow. Gotcha.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by der wo »

Please don't forget to measure the FG Mikey.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by hellbilly007 »

Wouldn't boiling the wort until a hot break, before pitching yeast, prevent puking? I think I've read that somewhere.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

hellbilly007 wrote:Wouldn't boiling the wort until a hot break, before pitching yeast, prevent puking? I think I've read that somewhere.
I read that too but decided to try it without. Might be a mistake....
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

der wo wrote:Please don't forget to measure the FG Mikey.
Ok :-D
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by der wo »

hellbilly007 wrote:Wouldn't boiling the wort until a hot break, before pitching yeast, prevent puking? I think I've read that somewhere.
The normal way making whisky or whiskey is without hot break.
But kiwi bruce convinced me a few months ago, to try it. With hot break the taste is cleaner, same maltiness, less fruitiness and all in all a better quality IMO. But I am not sure, what's after aging.
Anyway, a hot break kills the enzymes. And for a complete conversion you better have them while fermentation too. So I would always add liquid enzymes after a hot break.
The difference in puking is little.

Edit: And I would add yeast nutrients after a hot break.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by hellbilly007 »

Those are some good points, Der Wo. Was it still prone to puking even though you done a hot break?
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by der wo »

hellbilly007 wrote:Was it still prone to puking even though you done a hot break?
Yes. Perhaps less, but I am not sure. Even my agitator doesn't help much.
I always lower the heat after a steady stream has started. After 25% of the estimated distillate I try to rise it step by step. At least with a liebig condenser you hear a gurgling sound before puking. Then I shut down and wait a while. When it gets a bit cloudy because of puking, it's no problem as long it's a stripping run.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

Down to 1.02 yesterday... Looking good too :-D
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by der wo »

Does it still fermenting?
FG 1.020 is less than 6%. FG 1.000 would be 8.5%. If the FG will drop only a few points more, imo this recipe is not recommendable. Perhaps it turns out ok after distilling, but try another malt whisky recipe for comparison. Or the same recipe with added enzymes.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by skow69 »

der wo wrote:
hellbilly007 wrote:Wouldn't boiling the wort until a hot break, before pitching yeast, prevent puking? I think I've read that somewhere.
The normal way making whisky or whiskey is without hot break.
But kiwi bruce convinced me a few months ago, to try it. With hot break the taste is cleaner, same maltiness, less fruitiness and all in all a better quality IMO. But I am not sure, what's after aging.
Anyway, a hot break kills the enzymes. And for a complete conversion you better have them while fermentation too. So I would always add liquid enzymes after a hot break.
The difference in puking is little.

Edit: And I would add yeast nutrients after a hot break.
So that is like a mashout, right?

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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

der wo wrote:Does it still fermenting?
FG 1.020 is less than 6%. FG 1.000 would be 8.5%. If the FG will drop only a few points more, imo this recipe is not recommendable. Perhaps it turns out ok after distilling, but try another malt whisky recipe for comparison. Or the same recipe with added enzymes.

I'll leave it for another 2 weeks and see what's going on :D
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by bilgriss »

So that is like a mashout, right?

NotABeerGuySkow
No, generally "mashout" refers to raising the temperature at the end of a mash, in order to stabilize the mash and prevent further conversion. Beer guys are looking to preserve residual sugars at that point.

"Hot break" is mostly proteins that begin to separate during a full boil. After a good boil, chilling the wort rapidly results in "cold break", where a great deal of this type of thing simply drops out of suspension entirely, and quickly.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by der wo »

skow69 wrote:
der wo wrote:The normal way making whisky or whiskey is without hot break.
But kiwi bruce convinced me a few months ago, to try it. With hot break the taste is cleaner, same maltiness, less fruitiness and all in all a better quality IMO. But I am not sure, what's after aging.
Anyway, a hot break kills the enzymes. And for a complete conversion you better have them while fermentation too. So I would always add liquid enzymes after a hot break.
So that is like a mashout, right?
"Mash out" means the cooking of the unlautered wort to kill the enzymes. It ensures, that while lautering and sparging and before cooking with the hops the enzymes don't break down more dextrins. It would result in a too sour and strong beer.

"Hot break" means to cook the lautered wort 1-2h to fall out the proteins. After cooking, a protein trub will settle at the bottom and you can siphon off a clear beer. That's why beer is clear and our mashes not.
Btw there are also other reasons to boil it: To evaporate the DMS (dimethyl sulfate, tastes like vegetables), evaporate water for a higher SG (so you can mash with more water) and cooking the hops.

Edit: Bilgriss was faster.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by still_stirrin »

Good brewing discussion here guys. Very good pointers for beer brewers and distillers. The processes are NOT mutually exclusive although the process controls produce different results respective of the outcome intended.

Thanks all for the conversation.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Skipper1953 »

der wo wrote: "Hot break" means to cook the lautered wort 1-2h to fall out the proteins. After cooking, a protein trub will settle at the bottom and you can siphon off a clear beer. That's why beer is clear and our mashes not.

Edit: Bilgriss was faster.
Hot Break is not so much a process as described above as it is an event as described by bilgris.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by der wo »

Skipper1953 wrote:
der wo wrote: "Hot break" means to cook the lautered wort 1-2h to fall out the proteins. After cooking, a protein trub will settle at the bottom and you can siphon off a clear beer. That's why beer is clear and our mashes not.
Hot Break is not so much a process as described above as it is an event as described by bilgris.
Sorry, I don't understand.
Yes, I didn't mention the cold brake. Of course without cooling the beer fast down the break is not so complete. But it still has a huge effect.
Or what do you mean? Process or event? A process is slow, an event is sudden? I always like to learn something new.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by raketemensch »

I've also got my first LME ferment going, at least for distilling. It's an unhopped porter that I picked up dirt cheap.

They're only intended to get down to about 1.010, just for the record.

I'm hoping to run it this weekend.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

raketemensch wrote:I've also got my first LME ferment going, at least for distilling. It's an unhopped porter that I picked up dirt cheap.

They're only intended to get down to about 1.010, just for the record.

I'm hoping to run it this weekend.
That sounds great Raketmensch - please let me know how you get on with it. I'm away right now so won't be able to run mine for at least another two weeks.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by Mikey-moo »

So, it's been at 1.015 for about a month, time to run it!

It foams like a bitch. Adding butter helps.
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Re: First LME attempt at whisk(e)y

Post by bilgriss »

I missed some of the ongoing hot break discussion, and the follow up question regarding minimizing puking.

Most of my observations regarding the process stem from homebrewing. If pursuing or experimenting in order to minimize puking, I'd offer this observation. Pretty universally when bringing the wort to a full boil, proteins begin to foam (somewhat dependent on speed of heating) prior to a boil, after about 180F. You can skim those pretty easily at that point. But it happens fast when you hit boiling temps. The vast majority of that process stops 10 - 15 minutes into a full boil, at which point you have received most of the benefits you'd be looking for. No need to do a homebrew boil of 60-90 minutes. The 'break' at that point consists of the proteins and stuff floating around in your beer wort.
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