Not my first just yet - My plan, looking for feedback

[mashinations]

Hello all,

My first real post other than the introduction message.

I am an experienced all-grain brewer (10 year) and currently run a 20 gallon system. I'm familiar with most things mash and fermentation related. I figured with the exception of the still itself I already had most of the equipment so lets give distilling a try. I purchased a 26 gallon milk can boiler and a dual purpose still head (can be run as a pot or reflux depending on where cooling water is run to).

I've read through a bunch of posts here and from what I'm reading, distilling isn't so dissimilar to brewing in that there are usually multiple ways to skin the cat. For the first couple of runs I intend to just play around a little and don't expect anything really great out of it but wanted to outline my plans for feedback and ask a few specific questions.

Mash - I did a 60%/40% mix of cracked corn and barley. For brewing we typically target a mash ph of ~5.4. Is there a different target I should be looking for on a mash that's going to be distilled?

Fermentation - I used Whiskey Distillers yeast from Still Spirits. Fermented at 72 degrees. For beer fermentation temp is critical to the flavor of the product. How critical is fermentation temp on a wash that's going to be distilled?

Distilling - After doing some reading it's my intent to do a stripping run on this batch and use some backset (10%?) into a new batch. I'll continue this process until I've got enough distillate to dilute to a ~40% wash and re-distill more slowly into a finished product (already read and understand conceptually how to do the cuts).
Stripping run - just run the output quickly (obviously not so quick it's not condensing)?
2nd Distillation - is there any kind of target range/goal on how quickly I should run the output?

Storage of stripping runs and final products. I was going to store the distillate in kegs (I have these anyhow from brewing). Any issues with this? I understand the aversion to any kids of plastics/rubber, should I assume that so long as the distillate is not in contact with it, it's not a problem (i.e. the o-rings on the dip tubes of the kegs)? One the final distillate is run and proofed is it OK to store in mason jars? I read some threads around the lid seals but some seemed to be old and there was much disagreement around suitability.

[der wo]

Welcome,

Mistake No.1 for brewers trying making whiskey is the step mashing and the high temperatures, which lead to unfermentable sugars, good for beer, bad for whiskey.

Some other things are way less critical when mashing grain spirits. Sanitizing for example.

We often use bakers yeast, therefore we ferment often at high temperatures. Yeast and temp have effect on taste for sure, but before you think about those details, you should get a basic recipe running.
60% corn sounds like bourbon. You should study the NCHoochs Bourbon recipe and perhaps the Honey Bear Bourbon (you could make this recipe with base malts instead of honey malt too).

The pH is similar to brewing. But normally the grains alone bring it to a working range. For a simple all grain without backset, you don't need pH measurements or pH risers or acids. Because we produce more abv than for a beer, the mash gets very acidic during the fermentation. Calcium rich water or adding calcium carbonate buffers this best.

Don't dilute low wines with water for a flavored spirit. Either dilute with backset or strip down to a low abv.
For the cuts at the spirit run, you need practice. Even with much experience you need to collect small jars and decide later. No cuts during the run.

Is it your first distillation? Then despite of your brewers knowledge I would try first a sugarhead like for example birdwatchers or rads all bran. What's with cleaning and sacrifice runs? A birdwatchers is perfect for this.

The general rule here is to avoid plastic seals (except PTFE) also in contact with drinking strength room temp spirits. But it's a grey zone, we cannot proof it's safe or unsafe. There are many different plastics. Silicone and EPDM are better for spirits than the most other plastics, but not as good as PTFE. If you use even little plastics at home (like a plastic funnel to fill bottles), don't tell about it here, because it would sound like you are claiming it's safe.

[mashinations]

Thanks for the response der wo.

The idea with the original recipe was just to get something in the fermenter - I wasn't going for any specific style or expecting anything spectacular out of it.

I usually end up using a little acid (phosphoric) to adjust mash ph since my local water ph is so high (8.3). Good to know on the CaCO3.

Thanks as well for the information on not to dilute the low wines with water. I probably would have err'd there.

Yes, my first distillation. I contemplated a pure sugar wash or like but ultimately decided on the corn/barley mix as I wanted to get a little experience working with the cracked corn and figured to kill, or at least wound, 2 birds with a single batch.

Brewers have similar taboo's to the whole no plastic thing. Some things are easily avoidable, some aren't. At the end of the day the brewer/distiller has to make a call on what's best for them.

[ShineRunner]

How are you planning to do the corn? If you're planning to use your brewing setup, you should research what corn does to lauter tuns. It's possible to do, but most people end up fermenting "on the grain" (look it up if you don't know). That part of the process is definitely different.

You certainly can do an all grain bourbon to start with, but realize that the process is fraught with traps and complications that you may not want to deal with. Most advisable course of action is to try at least a few sugarheads and learn how to run your still, make cuts, and ease into the distilling aspect of things. I would compare the flavors and the headaches as a parallel to extract vs all grain brewing.

If you did start with all grain, I would suggest starting with a single malt style whiskey. Now, that doesn't mean scotch, necessarily. Some people don't like scotch, even if they are heathens.. Anyways, you can do a single malt (all barley, all wheat, etc) with the equipment you have. Just like making a beer, without boiling. Look for Jimbos single malt recipe.

Good luck

SR

[Cleco]

At the top header of this page there is a link to the parent site. Definitely worth your while to take a gander for a good informative read. Just trying to point you in the right direction before someone cries "spoon feeding!"

[ShineRunner]

Just went back and read some more of your original post-

As for stripping runs on a flavored product- whiskey- I would suggest running your strips until the overall average is 28-30%, if you can afford the time and energy. It will give you a more flavorful product and your keep cut from the spirit run will end up right around 65%, which is perfect for aging. For me, this means running until my output is around 8-10%ish.

Yes, run your strips hard and fast. I run slow through the fores- heat up as fast as possible (without puking) and then once the drops start, I slow it way down to help compress fores. Cut those, and then crank it up. Yes, you want to condense everything. No, your output doesn't have to be cold or room temperature. As long as it's under 120 degrees or so, it's ok.

Spirit runs are low and slow. Every still is different and you have to learn what you like best. A pencil lead sized stream is the most common recommendation. For me, I run about 2L/HR for heads and then about 3L/HR for hearts. Up to you on that one.

It's your call on the o rings and seals, but realize that you're not just dealing with low abv beer here. This is high abv alcohol VAPOR you're dealing with, at high temps (obviously). And not just ethanol, but acetone, methanol, and other things that react differently with plastics.. I wouldn't risk it. I don't smoke, and please don't do it around me. Same policy with plastics in your drink.

SR

[mashinations]

Thanks to all for their replies.

I had looked at the parent site already - lots of good information there.

Yes, using my existing mash tun and hot liquor tank HERMS (for those familiar with that term) to mash in. I understand the practical application of fermenting "on the grain" versus fermenting clean beer but for myself the way my system is set up and its location, fermenting on the grain isn't ideal.

ShineRunner (and others) - I completely understand the caution around the plastics topic. Because of that I've already ordered some PTFE tri-clamp gaskets to replace the silicone ones I already had. The only place there is silicone in my system right now would be the sight glass gaskets and I can just leave the sight glass out of the system until I have those replaced. Also thanks for the information on what %'s to target and flowrate. Understood that all systems and recipes are different and such - but good to have a starting point to move up/down from.

[kimbodious]

Backset is like a flavour concentrate, a bit like stock in a soup or casserole. Watch for how adding backset may reduce pH. Shinerunner has given you great sound advice! Looks like you're on an accelerated learning platform with all that brewing experience. I believe you'll find making distilled spirits far easier than brewing beer!

[mashinations]

Made my first run yesterday. Because of brewing I already had thermo-couples to be able to monitor temperature at different places. I had one that was in the wash and one at the head of the still. I turned on the burner and was getting up to temp, but was showing wide disparity between the two reading (wash at 180 and head at 130). I was starting to get small drops out of the condenser and finally the head temp quickly started to ramp up. By the time they got close to the same temp and I was getting anything approaching a stream from the condenser I was at 195 degrees. I backed way down on the burner and it slowly ran and ticked up to where I collected over the next couple of hours or so and shut down at 204 degrees and ~25% alcohol showing on the parrot.

I was fairly happy with the latter part of the run but seems like I probably wasn't patient enough in getting up to temp. I never got any really high % alcohol - at the beginning of the run it was maybe 50% and hovered at 40-45% for most of the run.

This was a stripping run and will be added back with future stripping runs for a final distillation so I'm not worried about the %'s or cuts at this point.

[der wo]

Gratulations on your first run!

Without more details it's impossible to judge it. How many liters were in the boiler, how many liters distillate you got, what total abv do you have now. Perhaps the mashing recipe (amounts, temps, durations, OG, FG).

[mashinations]

The wash was ~4% Alc (live and learn about the complexities of mashing cracked corn). Probably ~20 gallons into the boiler Ended up with just over 5l of distillate - I'd have to blend it all together to see what the average abv is but I would estimate it at 40% based on the hydrometer during the run. So 20 gallons at 4% suggests a yield of 3l of pure alcohol or 7.5l at 40%. Considering I shut down at 204 degrees and was still pushing out about 30%abv I'm sure I left some tailings in there that could account for some of that difference.

Given it was my first run I didn't pay a lot of attention to OG/FG and some other volumes that play a part. Was mostly looking to get something just to get some experience on the equipment.

[skow69]

Welcome to our beloved hobby. Sounds like you're off to a good start.

You've got the right idea about calculating the total amount of ethanol you put into the boiler and comparing that to what you collected. It's called "alcoholometry" and it is great information to have for troubleshooting when something goes haywire.

You've got a faulty estimate or observation on this one, however. See the chart below. If you really started with a boiler charge of 4% ABV, we would expect your initial distillate to come over between 30% and 35%. To get product at 50%, you need to start with a wash of 7% to 8%. The pot still calculator on the parent site makes a pretty accurate model of a run, too.

Also I don't recall anything about cleaning runs. Don't forget to do a dilute vinegar run and at least one sacrificial alcohol run before you keep anything to drink. Those first runs clean out the flux, machine oils, and other nasty tasting crap you don't want to drink.

Cheers.

[der wo]

You've got a faulty estimate or observation on this one, however. See the chart below. If you really started with a boiler charge of 4% ABV, we would expect your initial distillate to come over between 30% and 35%. To get product at 50%, you need to start with a wash of 7% to 8%. The pot still calculator on the parent site makes a pretty accurate model of a run, too.

Except he has a still with some reflux. Or a thumper perhaps. The first drops can be much higher in abv than the graph says also with a potstill because of the cold stillhead, but generally this graph is right.
(Not to correct skows post, only in addition)

[mashinations]

Thanks - that chart is helpful as well. I did look at the chart on the parent site but without usable information to put into it, I didn't mess with it. I'll do so during the next run.

Yes, I did a vinegar cleaning run but did not do a sacrificial alcohol run. I'll probably just consider yesterdays run that.

[mashinations]

Update -

After my first failed attempt at mashing corn and simply using that as a sacrificial alcohol run on the new rig I went ahead and just did a simple all-barley mash. 21 gallons, OG 1.07, only let it ferment a week before distilling (not ideal but given calendar wasn't another option for me), FG 1.02 - ~6.5%ABV. Run went fairly smooth though took a little longer than I expected. Other than at the very beginning when it was coming of at ~65%ABV most of the run it sat right at 50%. I ended up shutting down while still getting 35% off the condenser but ended up with just over 2.5 gallons inclusive of heads & tails. The stuff in the middle smelled and tasted pretty neutral.

I'll do another couple of runs like this to get my process down better and then blend all the output of that into a final running.

Thanks for all the help!

[der wo]

You collected from 21gal wash only 2.5gal low wines? A normal stripping run would collect 5-7gal.
You don't have told us, what still you have. Or I missed it. Potstill? Pictures?

[mashinations]

It's a potstill - one of the 26 gallon milk-can boilers with a 3" dual purpose (can run either reflux or pot) head. I've been running it as a pot still.

Understood that I shut it down early. I was about 5 hours into the run at this point and it was getting towards dinner. The hydro reading coming off was still 35% so I know I was leaving a bit behind.... didn't think it would have been that much though.

Question though - how long should it be taking me to strip down 21 gallons? I was getting a "pencil lead" stream coming off the condenser once it came up to temp - which took maybe close to an hour. Should I be running it faster? I never seemed to be at risk for vapor coming out of the condenser. I'm heating with a burner so turning it up some is easy enough to do.

[der wo]

Strip it as fast as possible. Of course without scorching or puking. And perhaps it's limited by the condenser size. Stills you can buy online often have stupid small condensers. Do you have a link to the still?

21gal is much more than I do. I think you will need to plan with much more time in future. The next 2.5gal will need more time at the same flame. The lower the alcohol in the boiler the less distillate you will have per hour.

That you leave alvcohol in the boiler is one problem, the other is that you leave taste there.

[mashinations]

https://moonshinedistiller.com/13-gallo ... eel-still-(dual-purpose-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

Effectively that still but with a 26 gallon boiler.

And yes, after the run yesterday I would plan on getting started earlier anticipating it taking longer - but think I likely could have run it faster given your statement.

[der wo]

Simply try more propane next time. Be prepared that you will need much more water. And it could happen that you reach the power limit for this condenser.

[skow69]

You know, if you have to break off a run in the middle, you can start it up again later without any problems. Just pick up where you left off. And yeah, crank up the heat. I would (carefully) dial it up as far as you can, one time, just to find out where the limit is. It is not essential, but it's a handy bit of information to have some times when things go sideways and get confusing.