Need Help Building CCVM Still

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artooks
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi Yes, I just did a BW to see if I can overcome with the cokd crash I am taking it into 2 degrees celcius (35 F) this keeps
The wash at liquid form but also keeps the lees very solid that no particules are coming to the boiler even there was nothing
İn the hop sack, this now actually works for me but wondering if it does change the taste of ethanol ?
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Guys,

I want to thank everyone for helping me, showing alternative ways of doing ,to be honest, I would not build nor I would be able to make Odin's Gin, if it was not for this whole community, so I would once again like to thank you all, when I look at that bottle, I see a long way back :) today I distilled my first Odin's Gin it has some tangerine smell I hope Juniper comes back later on :)
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi Everyone, there is a question that I could not find the answer which is bothering me, regarding cuts, in the Google search I searched cuts, but it always takes me to the cuts made in the pot, I have also read some articles about reflux cuts but it did not full fill my needs, so up until now I first use potstill mode for the stripping run then I use reflux for the spirit run, I only remove the foreshot in the first potstill run then I collect in 200ml cups in the reflux mode, I was discussing this with a friend, he told me that it is better to do first reflux the pot, so I got confused, he says that because the alcohol goes back in the boiler in reflux heads and hearts and then hearts and tails are mixed, cannot be separated completely but isn't it the same with the potstill also, what am I missing here, is my procedure ok first pot still remove forshots then second run in reflux mode which I collect in 200 ml cups ?
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by still_stirrin »

Potstill to strip....you can run it faster and collect the low wines. Go ahead and take a foreshots cut to reduce those in the low wines.

Then run through the reflux column for a neutral; the higher the reflux ratio the greater the purity will be. If you run full reflux for a bit at first with the output closed, it will stack higher volatile constituents in the top of the column so they can be removed first. This would be the heads, with late heads to follow.

If you collect off of the reflux column in small jars, you'll be able to separate the heads from the hearts, and later on..the tails. Keep the clean hearts for your neutral spirits and recycle the heads/late heads and tails to the feints jar for reprocessing separately.

This is the method (and recommended tools) to use. If you listen to your "friend's" advice...I question how good a friend he really is....unless you (and I) are misunderstanding what he is trying to tell you (words and language can sometimes get confused).

Artooks, all of this information, especially considering your equipment, should be well understood knowledge following your extensive inquiries already. What seems to be the problem with what you've read already?
ss



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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Thank you SS, I do not have any problem with what I have, I am doing it exactly how you described, the one thing that I got confused is the mixing of alcohols in the reflux mode, so I just wanted to ask the general opinion about that, so what you are saying is even with the reflux there is no problem making cuts, thank you very much. What I am producing from the All-Bran recipe that you recommended is incredibly good. Did twice gin and Limoncello the other day tastes great.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by still_stirrin »

The reflux column will help separate the fractions, stacking the higher volatile constituents (those with a lower boiling point) at the top of the column so they can be drawn off first. That leaves a wider hearts cut, and with a higher reflux ratio, you'll get better purity and higher proof ethanol in the hearts.

And depending on the type of reflux control mechanism (CM, LM, or VM), you may get the tails accumulated at the end rather than smeared through the run, ie - better separation. Again, the higher reflux ratio helps this separation process.

This is what you've read, and indeed it is still an operational fact.

Perhaps you can teach your friend what is actually happening in the distillation processes so that he won't try to confuse you (or others) with his ramblings.
ss
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by still_stirrin »

artooks wrote:...What I am producing from the All-Bran recipe...is incredibly good. Did twice gin and Limoncello the other day tastes great.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Thanks SS, yes that is correct, I go in %100 reflux for 1 hour, then I start to collect till the end of hearts around 94-95 ABV then the ABV starts to fall very quickly usually where I stop.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by Danespirit »

+1 Ss

An excellent explanation of what's going on.
Art...your friend doesn't have any experience with what a reflux still does, let alone how to run it.
He jumped in with both feet on the common misunderstanding that the falling reflux will mix everything up again and end up in the boiler.
Right from the start, that's true...BUT..as the column comes to temperature, things start to sort out.
In a reflux still we can call this state equilibrium....the still is in full reflux mode and the fractions are stacked depending on their specific boiling points. Btw...no need to run your still in 100% reflux mode for an entire hour.
The higher volatile stuff+ the uncondensable gasses will rise to the top. The uncondensable gasses will just vent out of the top ( another good reason for having an open to atmosphere system).
The temperature will stabilize and one can now begin to draw off the foreshots.
Now one could argue the volatile gasses will condense and fall down the column again, mixing everything up.
As the have a lower boiling point than the Ethanol we want, they won't get very far, before they evaporate again and ascent to the top.
The trick for the distiller is to draw the fractions off, without disturbing the equilibrium he so carefully established in the column (also the reason why it's recommended to insulate the column)
It's almost impossible, but he can minimize the smearing of fractions by the amount he draws off the still. Too much and it will smear like hell, too little and the run takes forever to complete.
Make a few smaller test batches and run them to get familiar with your still. When you've got it all dialed in, you can proceed with a spirit run.
When you've grasped how it works, invite your friend over and show him how things really work...by reading the HD forum, he could educate himself in more than one way. :eugeek:
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Thanks Danespirit, that is all correct, when I read kiwis thread he recommended that the reflux duration has to be 1 hrs, I am following that, what about you how long do you keep at %100 reflux ?
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by still_stirrin »

artooks wrote:...how long do you keep at %100 reflux ?
My column is 2"ID x 39" tall, glass marble packed and insulated and my still head is a combination concentric LM and VM, all copper. I typically equalize for 15 to 20 minutes while I'm getting the rest of my equipment ready for a run, for example, as I start the water through the product condensers and adjust the flow rates. At the onset of vapor production, I typically make an adjustment of the heat input, dialing it back a little to balance the reflux condenser water temperatures and flow rate.

I let the system stabilize a few minutes and then begin to slowly draw off the foreshots and early heads, after which I will again close the LM valve for a few minutes to restabilize. Then I open the VM valve slightly to begin collecting the spirit. Sometimes, I'll increase heat again to increase the reflux ratio and push the purity up for the run.

That's the way my still works best. But you've got to learn how yours runs best for the products you're trying to produce. Experience with your equipment cannot be traded for forum dialog. You just gotta' do it.
ss
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by Danespirit »

+1 Ss

That is about how long I let my column equalize too..
Art...depending on a lot of factors, the time schedule may vary for you.
Knowing your still from the pictures you uploaded, I'd say about 20 min to half an hour, would be sufficient for your setup.
Again...ymmv..
You should be able to tell when your column has reached equilibrium, by the way it behaves.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Guys this is Odin's Lemoncello, I finally got it right and it tastes great thank you very much for all the help and support you showed me.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by Still Life »

Looks delicious! Good work, Artooks.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Artooks,

Glad to hear it. See, I told you that you would get it. Looks like you can make a good neutral from a sugar wash for building other flavored products. There is lots more to learn and explore. Mashing for instance, if you like whiskeys or a good vodka. Best of luck on your journey.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Artooks,

Glad to hear it. See, I told you that you would get it. Looks like you can make a good neutral from a sugar wash for building other flavored products. There is lots more to learn and explore. Mashing for instance, if you like whiskeys or a good vodka. Best of luck on your journey.
Thanks alot RedwoodHillBilly, My first priority is to make a very fine Gin, now this is what I am reading about these days.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi Everyone,

This is my second year in distilling, Today is my second stillin day of this season, I have changed a few bits and pieces in my still and must say quite happy with the output and quality, I have a new SSR based Element Controller which is run by Auber DSPR1 must say working like a clock really like it compared to the dimmer that I had it has a better control in terms of the output I get built it myself so I am quite proud of it :), I also changed my boiler now I have a boiler which has a immersed element, I would like to thank you all now I am trying to adjust to my new controller I have a 4500 Watt LWD incoloy element the base also is %100 SS all my gaskets are PTFE, the hardest part was to make a custom PTFE gasket for the sight glass and the boiler Lid but managed to do it, I would like to thank you all for shaping my stilling journey for the good, I really like it, it gives me so much passion and love, I am getting 95% ABV until the end of tails which is awesome. Thank you very much guys I would not be here without your help.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi Everyone,

I am using,some scrubbers in the RC, but I also keep the level with a pulley and string so actually I do not need it, but if I take the scrubber off do I lose some vapour ? or it has no effect on it because it will be condensed anyway ?
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi Everyone,

After a long break and moving to a new house I am finally settled and started my distilling days again, so I have been reading a lot for the last 3-4 months to catch up, I started fermenting Shady's Sugar Shine, I stripped it and then run it with my CCVM today, so first I woıld like to explain my setup and what I did then I will ask my questions, I did a CCVM run not satisfied did a second time just to find out what my still is doing at different times, so the second time was much better, to begin with I have a small boiler for my spirit run 3 Gallon which I mainly use, so I had 1.32 Gallon of %55 ABV Low Wine, so I add another 1.32 on top of it which lowered my ABV to %27.5 so in total I started with 2.64 Gallon at %27.5 ABV, My Column is 36" long and in my second run I changed my packing so for packing I used from bottom to top 4 copper mash + 18 oz copper saddles + 2 copper mash + 18 OZ SS Saddles, and that was it, in my new house unfortunately I do not have a tank to place so I had to use tab water for cooling I had thermometers so the cold water goes out at 64F and comes back from the reflux at 75.2 F, anyway I started the still at 2800 Watt and within 17 minutes I started to see condensation in the sight glass so I was at full reflux for 40 minutes at 625 watt then I started to increase the RC for 1 inch started to collect foreshots, the Alcohol at first was coming at 95 ABV then once I increase the RC by another 1 inch so this time the rc is halfway open and increased the power to 900 the ABV dropped to 93, then I opened rc fully but this time ABV dropped to 90 ABV, I read ton of CCVM runs but I do not seem to get running it at RC completely open and with increased power to 9OO watt the without losing from ABV, so my question is how come people run CCVM getting hearts RC fully open and power is increased without sacrificing from ABV, does this mean that if I want a neutral product should I opt for a low rc setting ? I am really confused about this., I really appreciate the help at this stage.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by RC Al »

I dare say they are using bigger boiler charges filled with 40%

There needs to be a good lot of alcohol present to let the column seperate it all the fractions, get good cuts and get good speed
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

gday Artooks,
You need to increase the amount of reflux to get the higher ABV that you seek. If you want to have your RC wide open then you will need to increase power. Increase the power until you are just below the stage of flooding. The other way to increase reflux is to slightly lower the RC. This results in a slightly lower rate of output. You can increase the rate of input by increasing power to the boiler but again only to just below the stage of flooding.
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

kimbodious wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:02 pm gday Artooks,
You need to increase the amount of reflux to get the higher ABV that you seek. If you want to have your RC wide open then you will need to increase power. Increase the power until you are just below the stage of flooding. The other way to increase reflux is to slightly lower the RC. This results in a slightly lower rate of output. You can increase the rate of input by increasing power to the boiler but again only to just below the stage of flooding.
Thank You Kimbodious,

I was a little bit confused about how to run it, so if I did understand correctly, if I want to run the still fast as I can I need to wide open the RC but this time, I also need to increase power to the point of flooding, and I will have an increased output, and by doing this will I have an increased ABV as well ?

But at the same time I can also lower the rc and run it like that, but this time I will have an increased ABV but lower output, this last one is what I did so it can also be done like this, I do not know why, but I was in the belief that I need to run the rc wide open I do not know why ? I read how you operate the still but as long as I go wide open the ABV drops so I guess I need to increase power to overcome that is that correct ?
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Re: Need Help Building CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

Yes RC in highest position for maximum rate of output but minimum reflex.

This assumes that your packing is at optimum amount, that the RC is knocking down all the vapour and that you are operating the boiler at optimum power level (just below the stage of flooding).

You can increase the level of reflux by lowering the RC but you also get a reduction in rate of output. You might find that the decrease in rate of output is not an issue - quality vs time!

By increasing the level of reflux you are increasing the amount of condensate returning to the boiler. You may have to slightly reduce the power to the boiler if the increase in condensate is putting your column in a flooded state.

It is a balancing act between power level and RC position
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