Need Help Building CCVM Still

[artooks]

Hi Guys,


Today I did my 2 cleaning runs first with water then %50 water %50 vinegar and right now doing the sacrificial alcohol run I put it for %100 reflux for 15-20 minutes and opened the rc I find out that my heater can barely heat the still now, it can but at limits, anyway there is no packing in the column checking the alcohol level it comes at 79% trying to understand if I am doing something wrong I was expecting something around 92 but it came quite low. what it could be ? where should I concentrate ?

Also what I see different is there is water continuously dripping from the top rc to the boiler, I think this is normal ?

[still_stirrin]

No packing? And with marginal heat to reflux, you're running it as if it was a potstill. 160 proof is exactly what I'd expect with a setup like that.

If you want higher proof, you've got to have reflux and that means packing in the column. You need enough heat to push the vapor up the column while your reflux condenser is cycling the condensate back down the column. Turning the heat up increases reflux. But you MUST have packing in the column.

Artooks.....you simply have to do more reading....more reading than simply asking questions and reading the answers. That's what we here call "spoonfeeding". Educate yourself man. Don't rely on us to do it for you.
ss

[artooks]

Still_Stirrin, I just wanted to share my experience with you today, and just asked what I have found that is all, I am also reading a lot, thanks for the advice.

[artooks]

Having two problems.

1) In this new CCVM the water heats up very fast reaching (50 degrees Celsius 122 Fahrenheit) I also changed the condenser with shotgun condenser in this setup I think that is making the coolest water temperature go up,

2) I put marks on when the valve is full open and full close, but after refluxing for 30 minutes, when I open it a little bit I get some alcohol but then it stops and the temp go down, there is something that I am missing but will read more to find the answers. I cannot do a precise control with the rc ? from what I have red after refluxing an hour or 30 minutes they crack open it a little bit then alcohol starts to come. but with my case it did not happened that way.

[ShineRunner]

Having two problems.

1) In this new CCVM the water heats up very fast reaching (50 degrees Celsius 122 Fahrenheit) I also changed the condenser with shotgun condenser in this setup I think that is making the coolest water temperature go up,

2) I put marks on when the valve is full open and full close, but after refluxing for 30 minutes, when I open it a little bit I get some alcohol but then it stops and the temp go down, there is something that I am missing but will read more to find the answers. I cannot do a precise control with the rc ? from what I have red after refluxing an hour or 30 minutes they crack open it a little bit then alcohol starts to come. but with my case it did not happened that way.

SS gave you the answer above. You need to have packing in the column. I don't yet have a reflux column and know this...

SR

[artooks]

Hi,

After reading several posts, I think I found someone like me in this post experiencing the same problem.

http://w.homedistiller.org/forum/viewto ... 32&t=57067

[kimbodious]

Artooks
please read this http://tinyurl.com/mw3y9ln" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow , it is not perfect but there is important knowledge to be gained by taking the time in reading guides like this one. You need to build an overall understanding of the instruments you are using and the processes you are attempting, that way you will avoid basic fundamental errors like this latest one.

[skow69]

Where is a Rad when you need one?

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Unfortunately, probably keeping his or her mouth shut.

[still_stirrin]

After reading several posts, I think I found someone like me in this post experiencing the same problem.
http://w.homedistiller.org/forum/viewto ... 32&t=57067" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And did you also read the solution to Grasshopper's problems? Didja' learn something?
ss

[artooks]

Still_Stirrin, yes I read your comments also, from what I read and understand Grasshopper, also did the same mistake that I did, first running the reflux condenser without packing will not enable the column to go into reflux, unfortunately I was in the belief that even there is no packing due to the height of the column I could get some refluxing but this was wrong, without any packing the vapors are going up the column fast and due to this speed the water in the rc is facing more vapor heat, so it is getting hotter very quickly which probably answers why my cooling water was getting up to 122 F, also when there is packing the vapor will rise at a much slower rate and when it condensate it will fall back and will go up again from the packing, but because there was no packing all the vapors went up to the top very quickly and I saw the condensate dripping like rain from the sight glass, so all in all I get a better understanding, now next time when I start I will wait till the wash starts to boil about 1 hrs, when I see a few drops I will lower the rc to go into %100 reflux wait for 20-30 min and then slightly raise rc to collect fores, after will lowe the rc again wait 30 min and start collecting the heads and so on and forth, could you guys please confirm if I am on the right path also there is something which I did not quite understand, at the end Grasshopper capped it, I think when he was around 70 ABV do I need to cap it at the end to collect tails, or can I take the rc to the top to do it.

Thanks

[HDNB]

did i understand this correctly? you have a valve on this set up?

You are trying to CM control A CCVM with a valve on the water line?

[artooks]

Hi HDNB, This is a CCVM, I do not have a valve like a VM, all I have is a Tee and an rc inside which I am controlling by moving it up and down.

[ShineRunner]

You've gotten quite a lot of help on this. All the information is out there for you to find on your own.

I'm still unclear if you're adding packing on your next run.

And yes, there's a reason why he capped the ccvm at the end of the run. Hint: VM's can't collect below ~47%. Now it's up to you to find out why and whether you want to do the same.

SR

Edit- you've seen kiwi's tutorial on how to run a VM, right?

[artooks]

ShineRunner, I explained above that I understand my mistake, yes of course I will add packing next time, 36" long for 2" column, thank you for the hint, I will read more, yes I read kiwi's guide.

[artooks]

kimbodious, thank you very much this is a really good guide.

[artooks]

Hi,

Everyone, today is my happy day, because finally I learned how to run the still, after playing with it for several hours, I want to share my progress, in the belief that it could help someone that is going to build and use this type of Still.

1) I used 2 litres of pure ethanol 96% for this sacrificial run in 10 litres of Water.
2) Filled my 36" long and 2" in diameter column with a combination of copper mash and raschig rings, copper mash first and once I created the base filled the raschig rings from the top, and coppen mash again, so raschig rings was now in between two copper mashes.
3) I charged the boiler at maximum heat
4) Take the rc all the way up at open position
5) Started the circulating pump when I felt the heat was almost near the takeoff point.
6) Saw a few drips, and immediately lowered the rc at %100 reflux and lowered the heat, started to wait for 25 minutes, for the column to equilibrate and for he seperations to occur.
7) After 25 minutes just raised the rc slightly and my parrot started to fill out, saw 96% ABV which was shocking for me I must admit after working for this so hard to get to this point, I was finally there, started collecting 100 ml in 8.5 minutes.
8 ) Started collecting without stopping, the strange thing was I collected 1.9 lt Ethanol of 96% ABV out of 2 litres, and my lowest ABV was 89 then I stopped.

This is what I experienced up until now, I filled up my 80 lt water tank but the heat went up from 73.40 Fh to 116 FH in two hours, so now I am definitely considering buying a heat condenser of a fridge so that I can cool down the water, my only problem was this and will find a solution, but overall this is a great design and wanted to thank all of you for giving the help to me to achieve this. Here are the pictures which says it all.

[artooks]

%96 ABV :)

[kimbodious]

Great result!
It is not necessary to have chilled water for the RC so don't waste energy making the water super-chilled. The first run you had to find where the 100% reflux position for the RC was. Now that you know roughly that position you can start out with the RC already in the position for 100% reflux.

[artooks]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to share my Potstill experience with the CCVM still that I got, about 10 days ago I started BW wash the OG:1070 and FG:990 Using the Wash Calculator I find out that my 25 Lt was containing %10.32 Alcohol, But I discarded 3 litres of the wash due to it was very near the yeast sediment, so I did not wanted to take it leaving me with 22 Lt of wash with 2.27 Lt %100 Alcohol, I removed the rc and as you can see in the images, I capped it with an end cap. with no packing it was a long Pot still, I started it with max heat collected 4.5 lt of Alcohol at 50% ABV, I am quite happy with the way it works, very convenient so tomorrow I will do the spirit run and will make the cuts, the only thing I experienced when I checked tasted the Alcohol is there is very little taste but there is a smell, which I hope will be removed when I do the refluxing I hope, but overall I am very happy, to where I am now, and wanted to share my experience maybe someone who reads this thread could benefit, also, I would like to thank all of you for the help and support you showed thank you very much.

[artooks]

My Potstill

[artooks]

Hi Everyone,

I need some help on one of the issues I faced today in the Spirit run, everything started as normal, but this time my packing was a combination of copper mash, raschig rings and copper saddles by still spirits, this one just came on the mail the other day, I boiled the copper saddles for half an hours prior using them, anyway I packed 6 rolls of copper mash in the column then raschig rings then two copper mash, copper saddles and one copper mash, this was my combination, is this combination ok, or rather I stick with only 1 packing ?
Anyway I put the low wines 100 Proof in the boiler and charged it at max, but did not started the cooling water, I was doing some other work, I did experience a small incident at the beginning, the temperature rose and when I looked at the temp I saw it was around 81 Celsius (177 Fahrenheit) I was late to open the cooling water, when I checked the parrot, there was already 140 ml of alcohol,
even the rc was low closed, but as I said there was no cooling water, so anyway I started the cooling water and went to %100 reflux for 1 hour and lowered the heat a little bit, after 1 hours I slightly opened the rc and started collecting at 11 small 200 ml jars, the starting proof was perfect 192, anyway, once I reach jar 7 the smell changed to something like burned I should say hard to describe like a metal smell I should say and it started to grow till the end of jar 11.

So my findings and questions,

1) I added copper saddles in the column along with copper mash, raschig rings, and copper mash can this effect the overall taste of the final product, should I stick with only one ?

2) As I said I forgot to open the cooling water at the beginning can this cause the metal or burned taste ?

3) The temperature of my cooling water started to rise at the end 47 Celcius (116 Fahrenheit) does this change in the cooling water could change the taste of the final product ?

I collected 2200 ml of Ethanol

1 st 200 ml I removed, left with 1000ml of good tasting Ethanol and 1000ml of strange tasting ( metal like, burned) ethanol, is this normal ?

What should I do ? do I have to distill again ?

Please share your recommendations I really need them thanks.

[still_stirrin]

.... I put the low wines 100 Proof in the boiler and charged it at max...

Confused a little by your translation....did you use 100 proof low wines undiluted? Always....higher proof low wines will boil quicker than lower proof. Hence the need to dilute it. Also, we recommend diluting to 80 proof or lower for safety reasons because higher proof still charges can become explosive.

... but did not started the cooling water, I was doing some other work, I did experience a small incident at the beginning...

....this is exactly the reason why you need to pay attention to the recommendations given here...because you never know when you'll do unsafe operations...like forgetting to start the coolant flow. Shame, shame.

So my findings and questions,

1) I added copper saddles in the column along with copper mash, raschig rings, and copper mash can this effect the overall taste of the final product, should I stick with only one ? Homogenious packing is better than mixed media because you are trying to establish a gradient of redistillations. Multiple packing materials have various densities and thermal transfer properties which can cause a mixed fractionization of the reflux. Uniform packing, regardless of the chosen material, will perform better and with more stability/predictability.

2) As I said I forgot to open the cooling water at the beginning can this cause the metal or burned taste ? Probably not. Burning metal says that perhaps you ran your element dry, or to excessive temperatures such that the heat element is failing. If you use an immersion heat element, ALWAYS keep it immersed in the wash.

3) The temperature of my cooling water started to rise at the end 47 Celcius (116 Fahrenheit) does this change in the cooling water could change the taste of the final product ? The warm coolant (exit temperature) is good. It means you are balancing the water flow rate with the heat input and the corresponding vapor flow rate. I always adjust my water flow so that the exit temperature of the water is warm to the touch, ie- 110-125*F.

I collected 2200 ml of Ethanol

1 st 200 ml I removed, left with 1000ml of good tasting Ethanol and 1000ml of strange tasting ( metal like, burned) ethanol, is this normal ? 200ml is adequate for foreshots collection. But, you'll have most of the heads after that. Be mindfull of that and continue to collect in appropriately sized jars so you can make a good cut (conservative cuts)when switching to the hearts. Afterall, your objective is clean hearts for the neutral you're trying to make.

What should I do ? do I have to distill again ? Sure. It's all good...and "practice makes perfect". The experience of the run, and the lessons learned through it, will help you on the next run. Do it.

Please share your recommendations I really need them thanks.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

.... I put the low wines 100 Proof in the boiler and charged it at max...

Confused a little by your translation....did you use 100 proof low wines undiluted? Always....higher proof low wines will boil quicker than lower proof. Hence the need to dilute it. Also, we recommend diluting to 80 proof or lower for safety reasons because higher proof still charges can become explosive.

... but did not started the cooling water, I was doing some other work, I did experience a small incident at the beginning...

....this is exactly the reason why you need to pay attention to the recommendations given here...because you never know when you'll do unsafe operations...like forgetting to start the coolant flow. Shame, shame.

So my findings and questions,

1) I added copper saddles in the column along with copper mash, raschig rings, and copper mash can this effect the overall taste of the final product, should I stick with only one ? Homogenious packing is better than mixed media because you are trying to establish a gradient of redistillations. Multiple packing materials have various densities and thermal transfer properties which can cause a mixed fractionization of the reflux. Uniform packing, regardless of the chosen material, will perform better and with more stability/predictability.

2) As I said I forgot to open the cooling water at the beginning can this cause the metal or burned taste ? Probably not. Burning metal says that perhaps you ran your element dry, or to excessive temperatures such that the heat element is failing. If you use an immersion heat element, ALWAYS keep it immersed in the wash.

3) The temperature of my cooling water started to rise at the end 47 Celcius (116 Fahrenheit) does this change in the cooling water could change the taste of the final product ? The warm coolant (exit temperature) is good. It means you are balancing the water flow rate with the heat input and the corresponding vapor flow rate. I always adjust my water flow so that the exit temperature of the water is warm to the touch, ie- 110-125*F.

I collected 2200 ml of Ethanol

1 st 200 ml I removed, left with 1000ml of good tasting Ethanol and 1000ml of strange tasting ( metal like, burned) ethanol, is this normal ? 200ml is adequate for foreshots collection. But, you'll have most of the heads after that. Be mindfull of that and continue to collect in appropriately sized jars so you can make a good cut (conservative cuts)when switching to the hearts. Afterall, your objective is clean hearts for the neutral you're trying to make.

What should I do ? do I have to distill again ? Sure. It's all good...and "practice makes perfect". The experience of the run, and the lessons learned through it, will help you on the next run. Do it.

Please share your recommendations I really need them thanks.

+1

You'll get it, but I would recommend just staying with copper mesh until you get experience. Then you can experiment. Only change 1 thing at a time. This is part of the "design of experiments" that I mentioned before.

By the way, you don't need to remove the packing when converting to a pot still, just remove the reflux condenser. This keeps some copper in the vapor path.

It does take a while to learn your equipment, patience.

[artooks]

Dear Still Stirrin,

I am sorry, for not putting it in clear form, What I meant was, I collected low wines the day before at Stripping run at 100 proof and diluated it to 50 Proof for the spirit run, sorry for the mixup.

I will do a homogenious packing next time, thanks for the recommendation.

Happy to see that warm water is not a bad thing, but the problem is the alcohol that I am collecting, is becoming hot as well around 92 Fahrenheit, I was in the belief that the product should not be warmed up, so it that ok

I am sorry yes it was my mistake that I forgot to open the cooling water. This will never happen again.

I collected at a total 11 200ml jars, isn't that right ? what I was trying to say is the last 5 200 ml jars which totals to 1000ml smells strange.

So from what I explained what do you think that could have caused this strange smell metalish burn smell ?

Still Stirrin thank you very much for your help it really means a lot.

[artooks]

RedwoodHillBilly Thank you very much, when I look back now, I really have learned so much but the more I learn the more I see how delicate this hobby is, so this is a very long Journey, I will stick with only copper mash for the time being, thanks, what do you think that could have caused this strange smell metalish burn smell ? Thanks for the tip for keeping the mash in the pot still I thought packing only works for the reflux still, what benefit would I have if I leave the packing in the stripping run ?

Thanks

[RedwoodHillBilly]

RedwoodHillBilly Thank you very much, when I look back now, I really have learned so much but the more I learn the more I see how delicate this hobby is, so this is a very long Journey, I will stick with only copper mash for the time being, thanks, what do you think that could have caused this strange smell metalish burn smell ? Thanks for the tip for keeping the mash in the pot still I thought packing only works for the reflux still, what benefit would I have if I leave the packing in the stripping run ?

Thanks

The copper in the vapor path helps with removing sulpher compounds, it is also easier than removing the packing for a pot still run. I'm not sure what you mean by metallic smells. This could be just tails, or something burning on the element. What heating element are you using? I use a stainless element with a stainless body. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0183KIU1E/

Perhaps it is your heating element?

[kimbodious]

Artooks, did the level of liquid in your boiler fall below the level of the heating band on your boiler? If it did that would account for the hot metal smell.

You will have lost some vapour by not having your RC operating when the temperature had already reached 81C - a lesson learned about leaving your still unattended

Practise makes perfect, run it again, you can dilute it say to 30-40 just to make sure the liquid level stays higher than the heating band. 200ml sampling is good

When you hear the heating up sounds go quiet you know the liquid is boiling; the vapour will quickly start to be pushed up the column and that is a good time to have the RC operating if you are paying attention.

[still_stirrin]

... but the problem is the alcohol that I am collecting, is becoming hot as well around 92 Fahrenheit, I was in the belief that the product should not be warmed up, so it that ok...

If your product is warm (92*F according to your measurement), that is OK. In fact, in some regards it is good. What it will do is allow the volatile constituents to outgas quicker. Typically, we cover with coffee filters and let the product air for 24 hours. The warm product expedites this process.

But, your proof measurement will be incorrect if measured at 92*F. It will read higher %ABV (sink deeper into the sample jar) because the liquid is less dense when warmer than the calibration temperature of the Proof & Traille hydrometer (typically calibrated at 60*F). So, when measuring the product, you'll need to correct for temperature measurement (correction factors are online, search for them).

As suggested by others and myself, the "metalic smell/taste" likely is the result of your heater getting too hot, be it an internal element or an external heatband. You need to calculate where the anticipated liquid level will fall to during the run and ensure that you always have more liquid in the boiler than that.
ss

[artooks]

Dear All,

Thank you very much, I am using an external 2000 Watt Heating Band it has an 3" height, but I think you are all correct, because, my boiler is 8 gallon capacity, and for the spirit run I put 2.8 Gallon, there could be a risk due to the evaporation leads to lower the level near the end, so tomorrow, I will distill this with 5 Gallon at least, I did not want to waste drinking water, that was the reason I put at a low level, so nowadays, I am building a small boiler for this setup. Do you think this smell could be removed during the next reflux distillation ?,

Tomorrow, I will distill again, with only copper mash and with 5 Gallon Low Wines , Just to confirm, have some questions

1) Do I at the beginning have to keep rc at the top, and when I see few drops lower the rc ?

2) Do I have to start the cooling water as soon as I charge the boiler ?

3) Do I lets say I get fores, have to to %100 reflux for 10 minutes between the cuts, or once I go into %100 reflux, for 1 hrs, would that be enough till the end of the run.

By the way I purchased a bigger water tank 26 Gallon and my boiler is 8 Gallon I think it will be sufficient even in the summer.


Thanks a lot