Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run...

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

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butterpants
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Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run...

Post by butterpants »

I have a few random yet specific questions for those out there willing to offer up any advice.

It pertains to a spirit run of a wheated whiskey/bourbon recipe. The still is the 3" torpedo (2 piece stainless column) from MileHi attached to a sanke keg, directly fired with a Blichmann burner. I've previously collected just about 10 gallons of low wines that I stripped out fast as I could in pot still mode from multiple mashings. I cut the strip at 10-15% when I had to crank the heat up a bunch. The low wines smell like they (lotta corn character) have potential but also kinda strange and gross...if that makes any sense. I assume this is normal in a stripping run and I've got a big smeared mess that smells "strange" to me? I have not spot checked the ABV on them but the OG of the ~9 gallons of wash/wort that I would get 2-2.5 gallons of low wines from was usually near 1.060. The end game of this project is being able to fill a 5 gallon charred oak bbl with 60% ABV deliciousness.

My questions pertain to the proper collection vessels volume, time and heat necessary and a concern on cutting/blending.

1) Collection. With all the reading and research I've done here, multiple small collection vessels are in order. No problem, I got that covered. Just went out and picked up a whole mess of 500ml Ball canning jars. I like numbers and kind of forecasting what to expect on jars necessary. Rounded some numbers and...

Low Wines = 10 gallons (US)
Approximate harvest from spirit run post cuts = 5 gallons
5 gallons = ~19,000 ml (sorry for swapping units but this is how my brain thinks....small volumes are metric)
19,000ml / 500ml (each pint jar) = About 38 full jars, just for the keepers! 76 jars if I kept every last drop and I expect 500-600ml of foreshots but I'll be utilizing them other places but still retaining)

Should I be prepared to have 76 pint jars on hand if I'm going really slow and want the best blending stock for later? Is this unreasonable? Should I just be taking the 80% -> 65% ABV fraction and putting it in much bigger jars (like half gallon) to save the hassle of unnecessarily segregating hearts, then pick and choose only heads/tails to blend in? Are 500ml cuts the appropriate volume for 10 gallons of low wines from a pot still?


2) Heat and time. So far tossing the burner just high enough that the wash doesn't scorch and being done 2 hours later for a 10 gallon strip has been my experience. It has worked well and allowed me a few opportunities to work out kinks in its operation....but for this low and slow spirit run well I'm confused on what to expect. Given the above parameters, if someone could just toss some ball park generalizations at me that would be great.

Start to finish, how long to complete the spirit run?
Steady heat the whole time or variable with the cut you're in ? What % of max burner output we talking?
Output flow in drops per minute or more a pencil sized stream (or bigger)?


3 Blending in cuts. I'm worried that because of my own personal tastes I won't make the best product...hear me out. I'm the guy who drinks 125 proof Bookers neat and refuses even a splash of water because I kind of like the burn. So when I go to blend in heads should I bring a friend who's a little more sensitive to higher abv and burn? I will be sharing the fruits of my labor so need some mass appeal not just what butterpants wants.


Ok enough of my insanity. Thanks for the replies!
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NZChris
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by NZChris »

If you're going to be drinking it at 125 proof, it doesn't matter how bad your cuts are because the proof buggers up your taste buds too much for it to matter. Plus cell damage raises your cancer risk.
There's no point in being a hero drinking high proof just because you can.
butterpants
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by butterpants »

I'd imagine it'll be watered down to 45 or 50%. Not everyone here likes the burn.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by cuginosgrizzo »

Hi butterpants,

I'll answer question 1. I think you are overestimating your yield. You don't say what is the ABV of your low wines, but judging from your process and your description of the stripping run, they should be around 30%. That means a total of 3,5gals pure alcohol. Which means theoretically 5,8gals at 60% TOTAL extraction, without cuts. I would not expect to save 5gals for your barrel out of this spirit run: depending on your cuts you might get around 3,5 to 4gals hearts at 60%ABV. Anyhow I would estimate a total collection of around 6 gallons to count the number of vessels. And I'd up that number, collecting in quantity smaller than 0,5L at least during heads and tails.

As for question 3...well...it is your game, you play it as you like it better!
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by ShineRunner »

I agree with above.. You're way overestimating your alcohol. Use the pot still calculator V2 on the parent site. Input your low wine abv and amount, and it'll give you your estimates. I did a quick calculation on 10 gallons of 30% low wines, adjusted the Max run time and came up with around 19L total collected, if you shut down at 20%. Use that number to estimate how many jars you need. Personally, I would collect about 400ml per jar with a few quart jars thrown in there for the early heads and late tails. Even hearts, if you think you can tell when they are. More than likely, you won't know yet though.

I would estimate you get about 2-2.5 gallons of keep from that. Depending on your cuts.

As for heat, that's up to you. I run at a pencil lead sized stream and it does me well. I run very slow through fores- more of a broken stream/fast drip. Then speed it up a little through heads, then open it up more as the run progresses.

SR
butterpants
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by butterpants »

Great info, thank you. Overestimation of yield, copy. Ramp up temp as run progresses, got it.

Yep it's a total tossup on weather or not I'll be able to decipher heads/hearts or tails. I know methanol, isoamyl acetate, clean ethanol and that wet dog nasty fusel. Played with my sacrificial cleaning run and could pick out all of this but putting it all together on the spot, who knows.

For heat applied, does it matter how quickly I get to the fores? Seems silly to slowly get to the initial output boiling point but I could be missing something...
Overall time to spirit run out 10 gallons from a 3" diameter direct fired potstill? 5 hours, 10 hours? I find the calculator confusing because heat will be variable right and doesn't column diameter play a role in overall speed?
How hot can my cooling water get before it will not function properly?
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by ShineRunner »

Get it into jars and let it air for 24-48 hours and go from there..

I don't think heat up matters. I go full blast until I feel the condenser start to warm up, then back it off a bit once the first drops come out.

I don't use the calc for time or anything really, other than the expected alcohol to be collected. For example, If I plan to cut off at 20%, then I should have around 19L of distillate. Time and takeoff speeds are variable and something the calc can't really handle.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by ShineRunner »

As for total time, it'll depend on what you settle on for your stream. Everybody is different, but I generally take my heads at 2L/hour and hearts at 3L/hour. Works for me.

And what kind of condenser are you running? As long as your distillate comes off below 120-125, you're fine. Some people believe letting it come off at warmer temps helps with evaporating off the junk a little faster. I'm one of those people..

SR
butterpants
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by butterpants »

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201703 ... 96e0f6.jpg[/img]

This is my still.... pretty much. Minus the chick, rubber bung up top (replaced with a stainless thermowell) and milk can (replaced with a sanke keg). I don't have dimensions on the condenser diameter or length but it's large.

Thank you for the additional deets on times to prepare for.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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NZChris
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by NZChris »

I hope there is some copper in that.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by butterpants »

Oh of course. Couple of loosely wrapped copper scrubbies packed in column.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by butterpants »

Ok and the results are in. I wanted to leave a really detailed post for those wanting clear numbers and of course for a persistent reference for when my log book goes missing....

Whiskey Spirit Run:

Kit details
Still was charged with 11 gallons of low wines. These measured out between 28-30% ABV via refractometer and an average of all the individual gallon containers. My boiler is a 15.5 gallon sanke keg with the spear removed. No other modifications, no issues with that volume in that size boiler. Low wines were not diluted as they were well below 40% ABV. The still was heated via propane with a Blichmann burner. Still was purchased at MileHi Distilling and is a 3" Torpedo (CM) that was half assembled to run in shorter pot still mode. There are 2 small copper netting pieces loosley rolled into 3" diameter and inserted into the still bottom where it meets the stepdown flange into the sanke. Cooling water volume used was a 55gal drum and started at 60F. This water was dumped/refreshed once it hit 90F. The water was recirculated through the Liebig condenser via brewing chugger pump flow controlled via ball valve. The water from the drum was pumped into the street when needed by a submerged sump pump, no disconnecting necessary. A stainless parrot with hydrometer is pictured and was used but not during fores/early heads. A thermometer is used with a sealed stainless thermowell at the column top (the stopper on top is not exposed to vapor path...it just seals the thermowell chamber to keep temps consistent). Thermometer is a Fisher Scientific traceable with a 6" probe and 8' cord.
cuts3.jpg
Spirit Run Process

- Fill boiler with 11 gallons ~30% whiskey mash low wines stripped out over the last 2 months.
- Crank heat output to about 75%.
- Around 1 hour later, heat went from 85F to 156 very quickly and vapor was puking out. Immediately turn burner to barely visible blue flame.
- Crank cooling water ball valve to full output.
- Observe as still output slows to a few drips a second alternating cyclically to a fine stream every 15 seconds.
- Collected 500ml foreshots and discarded. There were 4x 10 gallon stripping runs @1.060 so more fores could have been collected but I planned to bulk collect early heads and wasn't worried bout fores getting into the final product.
- Hook up 1500ml jar and collect early heads slowly without adjusting heat from barely visible flame. These were kept for an all feints run to be completed much later.
- Start collecting 300-400ml at a time in small pint jars (see chart below). Jars are all labeled 1-50 and arranged chronologically and capped with a breathable coffee filter once filled.

Code: Select all

Jar  Time    Temp    ABV      Notes    

#1    1200    170F    75%    Strong higher alc, not added
#2    1220    172F    75%                     "
#3    1228    173F    75%    Slight sweet, light higher alcohols, mod burn
#4    1237    173F    75%                     "
#5    1246    172F    75%                     "
#6    1256    172F    72%   Light isoamyl acetate, sweet and clean, light burn
#7    1306    171F    72%                     "
#8    1317    172F    74%                     "
#9    1328    173F    75%                    "
#10  1340    171F    75%                    "
#11  1350    172F    75%                    "
#12  1405    174F    75%   Sweet, clean, light burn
#13  1417    172F    75%                   "
#14  1433    174F    80%                   "
#15  1447    175F    78%                   "
#16  1457    176F    78%                  "
#17  1507    177F    79%                  "
#18  1518    178F    78%                  "
#19  1529    177F    76%                 "
#20  1540    177F    75%                 "
#21  1551    178F    75%                 "
#22  1600    177F    72%                 "
#23  1611    178F    72%                 "
#24  1626    177F    70%                 "
#25  1643    177F    70%   Inc flavor, slight corn aroma
#26  1651    180F    70%                 "
#27  1705    175F    68%                "
#28  1715    178F    70%                "
#29  1726    179F    70%                "
#30  1735    181F    70%   Pronounced corn flavor, pleasant
#31  1743    182F    65%               "
#32  1752    183F    65%               "
#33  1803    183F    64%               "
#34  1814    183F    60%   Good flavor, slightly bitter
#35  1831    184F    60%              "
#36  1846    185F    56%   Inc tails/fusel aroma. Not Added
#37  1858    187F    55%   Not Added
#38  1908    187F    54%   Smells like Bigfoots dick.  Not added

End small jar collection.
- Heat output was not altered during small jar collection.
- Heat was cranked up to ~50% output once small jars complete to harvest heads in a large gallon container. Ran until filled (~30 minutes).
- Total run from heat up to end of tails was almost 9 hours. Add in cleanup and it was 10.
- Total of 38x 300-400 ml jars were harvested.

---

- 36 hours passed with collection jars left to off gas.
cuts1.jpg
---

Cutting for Blend Process
cuts2.jpg
- 5 days after spirit run.
- Evaluation of aroma and flavor started at jar #19 and incrementally worked backwards in each direction to the heads/tails sections.
- Samples were smelled at full strength then dilluted to 40% ABV and reassessed to include flavor.
- A master blend was also collected. 1ml amounts from every jar kept and tasted along the way.
- Once all jars tested, #1,2,36, 37, 38 and of course the early heads 1500ml and late tails 3800ml were not added to the blend.
- All jars kept for blend were dumped into a stainless corny keg prepared with BUNA seals, no silicone (best I could do).
- The final blend came in around 65% ABV and totaled less than 3 gallons.
- This process will be completed 1 more time so a 5gal charred oak barrel can be filled and aged 6 months.
- Pretty tasty blend right now!


Hopefully this will help someone in the future. I truly researched a fair amount... thanks to this site and a few books feel like my first attempt was a success. My major concern is heads and headaches. Unfortunately I enjoy high ABV spirits...this "love of the burn" tends to give me a bias towards including heads. The fear of course is including too many early heads and having the final product cause deleterious effects on its drinkers. I've tried to eliminate some of the greedy temptation by bulk collecting early heads making them inaccessible to the blend. It's just hard for me now to correlate how much is too much until it's too late. Tails are easy.

Comments welcome
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Truckinbutch
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by Truckinbutch »

Good documentation that should answer questions for anyone questioning your run .
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by Swedish Pride »

thats some write up.
Puts me to shame for sure.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by bilgriss »

Nice detailed write-up.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by still_stirrin »

I learned to do cuts just like that. My key to success is the documentation. I try to be very descriptive with the aroma and flavor perceptions, relating to paradigms as a benchmark. As a certified beer judge, training my senses is very important to discerning the variation between samples. Documenting the perceptions gives a tangible record of the process and allows me to recheck my judgement.

When the jars are collected, I measure temperature and proof and record that (along with the date, jar number, and recipe name) with a piece of masking tape on each respective jar, then cover with a coffee filter to air for 24 hours.

With this type of rigorous process, soon you'll be able to predict the cut points and manage the type of blends you like. But always continue the process (documentation) as it will continue to train your skills. Plus, in the future the detailed notes provide feedback to not only how you make cuts, but also the recipe formulation, yeast management & fermentation processes, and operation of your still(s).

Some hobbiests are much less detailed and are capable of making fine spirits. Experience is a great teacher. But, in lieu of master distiller oversight, the rigorous process control through detailed documentation can help you achieve a master level of knowledge just as well.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by butterpants »

Certified Beer and Mead judge here as well :) Cider too if the BJCP ever gets off their asses and fixes it.

Thanks guys.
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Re: Expectations and questions for upcoming 1st spirit run..

Post by Pikey »

butterpants wrote:
............ Unfortunately I enjoy high ABV spirits...this "love of the burn" tends to give me a bias towards including heads. The fear of course is including too many early heads and having the final product cause deleterious effects on its drinkers. I've tried to eliminate some of the greedy temptation by bulk collecting early heads making them inaccessible to the blend. It's just hard for me now to correlate how much is too much until it's too late. Tails are easy.

Comments welcome
As long as you discard a decent amount of foreshots, you will have reduced the "Headaches". If you like the "Spirit bite", then you can incorporate heads which also have some of the flavours in them. With a whiskey, you might want to investigate the early tails as well.

It's YOUR blend - you can try several different blends if you like, to see which you like best.

Very nice write up :thumbup:
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