First Pot Still run with copper mash particles fell

[artooks]

Dear All,

By the recommendation of many people in the forum who helped me a lot, in order to reduce the sulphur in the wash I started to put copper mash in my first pot still run, everything went ok, but when take out the copper mash in order to give it a wash to clean it, I saw some particles in the water that fell from the copper mash, also one part of the mash turned white, so I am wondering what the heck, so now I need to ask some questions, does this sulphur that the packing catches ?, or is it something else that I have to worry and trash the spirit that I collected ? normally when I finish the run I wash my packing with water and leave it in the white vinegar %50 + water %50 solution for 3-4 days, could this caused this ?
this is happened today in my first pot still run with copper mash packing so I am really confused, but even if that is sulphur, than what the packing turned white, I would really appreciate if you could help me.

Thanks

[der wo]

"Turn white". Do you mean turn silver? If yes, are you sure it is pure copper, not coper plated steel? Is it magnetic?

[seamusm53]

I cannot speak to the exact chemistry reactions but my experience is that the copper is not just a reactive surface upon which some magic occurs (catalyst) but appears to be both a reactive surface AND substance which aids in clearing the distillate of some obnoxious compounds. When I use vinegar to make the copper pretty again I have found that I am actually washing away some of the copper containing compounds - there is a net loss of the copper packing. Over time (repeated distillations) the copper goes bye bye and must be replaced. The black you see in the picture is not just a surface discoloration which can be washed off.

[artooks]

Well the problem is, this was sold to me as pure copper, but now I can see that it isn't by turning white I mean turn to silver, I will check with magnet tomorrow, and will tell you I suspect that it could be plated, I am really angry because where I purchased this copper mash is selling this to many people who are distilling, so I will definately replace these, what should I do with the distilate is it ok to distill it again and forget about it, because it looks clear, but now I suspect from the drinks that I previously distilled, lets say that this was copper plated, can it do any harm, I am asking this because I do not know also I need a good reliable source to buy copper mash.

[seamusm53]

It IS the copper which is chemically reacting and this doesn't mean you were sold something else. I cannot imagine someone plating a base metal with copper and being able to sell the mesh at a cost equal to pure copper - copper aint THAT expensive. This is just what the copper mesh is supposed to look like after a run.

[Pikey]

Maybe ! - I recently was about to buy some "Copper" pan scrubbers, but a direct question to the seller - came back with the reply that they were "Copper plated" !

[still_stirrin]

Looking closely at the photo, it does indeed look like the mesh is copper plated. And the place where the copper plating has been removed by the copper sulphate reduction by the acetic acid leaves the base metal exposed. This is what it "looks like" from the photo.

I cannot speak to the material (or metal substrate) because we don't know where you got it. I would be disappointed too if sold a mesh screen as "pure copper" when it was actually plated. Perhaps your seller can make it right with you.

Good luck.
ss

[HDNB]

my copper turns black and also gets silver streaked into it. always has. no idea of the chemistry but it does remove sulpher for sure.
some from brewhaus, some from mile hi and some from i can't remember where.. and they all do the same.
vinegar soak makes them like new again.

if this showed up after a vinegar soak, i'd be suspect....but looks pretty normal in the photo. check with magnet.

[artooks]

Hi,

Well I think it is plated otherwise I would not be seeing the silver underneath but at the same time today I checked it with a magnet it did not pick, so I do not really know.
I also have some copper scrubbers that I purchased from Clawhammersupply that I did not yet used them yesterday I asked them about its specifications I was told that it is " 99.99 Copper C110 " just for the info.
my column is 36" long, what I am thinking instead of using copper mash would it be better to use copper saddles and raschig rings instead ? Yesterday I was really put of because of these plated scrubbers, anyway can you please recommend me some vendor where I can find good quality of copper mash and scrubbers ? if using both how much the copper saddles need to go in a 36" long column ?

[NZChris]

Try your local scrap metal dealer. The last time I went to one, the guy in charge was a stiller and knew exactly what i wanted and why.

Buying stilling gear from a HBS is a mug's game unless you know exactly what you want and only need to chat up the staff for entertainment.

[der wo]

When you polish the silver parts of the copper mash and it stays silver, then it is no copper.
The scrubbies from clawhammersupply should be safe.


I would redistill the old spirits.

[artooks]

I today I tried three things,

1) I put a magnet to see it catches result: It did not catch

2) I put the copper mesh in a polishing machine it did not turn to silver

3) I burned the copper and it melted away

So in the light of this information, I got even more confused why it happened like this ?

What do you think ?

[der wo]

2) I put the copper mesh in a polishing machine it did not turn to silver

So the silver parts got pink again?

[artooks]

yes they were copper color

[artooks]

I want to buy copper saddles and copper mash from US online store, can someone please give me a recommendation

[der wo]

Then I think everything is fine. Sorry, that I leaded you on the wrong track. But the silver parts of the first pic really look like steel.

Copper gets dark during the use. During the run it is copper sulfide (not sulfate!). It's good to clean away the sulfide after use. Then the copper is again shiny pink and gets slowly darker while you store it. But this is copper oxide! The oxide can remain on the copper. Some here think, the copper has to be oxidized other mean it has to be shiny... I think both works, depending on circumstances. Probably oxidized copper works better when the pH is low, shiny copper better when the pH is high.

I would stay with the copper mesh. Or do you have other issues with it?

[artooks]

Yes I will stay with copper mash but I will change the ones that I have right now I will use the ones that I have from Clawhammersupply at least I know what they are made of.
but does copper saddles is better ?

[der wo]

but does copper saddles is better ?

No, mesh is better. More surface area.

[artooks]

Where can I buy good quality copper mash ?

[artooks]

After reading several posts I found the following, do you agree that after a while the copper bits gets erroded and bits fall in the boiler


" Yes include a chamber of copper packing in the vapour path but be aware that it gets destroyed and needs to be replaced occasionally.

Best place for it in my opinion is at the bottom of the column. As it erodes the bits fall into your boiler and get flushed away. Put it above the packing and it just creates another cleaning job.

Don't remove your packing. Just back flush it with water into the boiler after each run and drain it away. It is worth building into your column or condenser some way of putting clean water into the column above the packing for this purpose. Every now and then put some water in the boiler and blast some steam through the packing. "

[der wo]

Where can I buy good quality copper mash ? I think your mesh is all right. You don't need to buy again.

After reading several posts I found the following, do you agree that after a while the copper bits gets erroded and bits fall in the boiler Not really "bits". But the wash gets a bit colored by the copper. Only visible with very clear and light washes. Perhaps this is partially why it works: It's not proven, that the copper must be in the vapor. There is a study, which recommends the copper in the boiler. Although I have copper in the vapor path, I use it in the boiler too. Or in the low wines waiting for the spirit run. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=63358

" Yes include a chamber of copper packing in the vapour path but be aware that it gets destroyed and needs to be replaced occasionally. Yes. But this needs a really long time. Nothing to worry now.

Best place for it in my opinion is at the bottom of the column. As it erodes the bits fall into your boiler and get flushed away. Put it above the packing and it just creates another cleaning job. At the bottom of the column the acids of the wash solve the copper oxide, it drops into the boiler and reacts there. At the top are no acids. Here the oxide is more stable. Perhaps here clean copper works better than oxidized.

Don't remove your packing. Just back flush it with water into the boiler after each run and drain it away. It is worth building into your column or condenser some way of putting clean water into the column above the packing for this purpose. Every now and then put some water in the boiler and blast some steam through the packing. " I always remove the packing and clean it. Other members, other opinions. I agree that steam cleaning is very effective. Especially against smell.

[Danespirit]

There is no need to be alarmed.
Your melting test determined that it's genuine, otherwise the thin plating would have disappeared and the base metal would be exposed.
It'll take quite some time before the copper actually is worn out to a degree that a replacement would be necessary.
Vinegar or Acetic acid (diluted), is excellent for cleaning the packing.
I've bought myself a cheap steam cleaner, which also is most excellent to clean the still parts...if the need should be.
After some experimenting, I've come to the conclusion that lava rocks suit my needs perfect...so that's my packing by now.
That beeing said I have some copper in the still, too.
Those "flakes" drifting on the surface, looks like tiny copper particles that were suspended in the packing after cleaning. Light reflexions make them shine silvery (catch some of it on a white piece of paper and let it dry to examine it).
As the column got to temperature the vapors loosened them and eventually, they returned to the boiler with the down going reflux.
That would be my best explanation for this phenomena.

[artooks]

Hi Everyone,

Today I did another test and have good results, I cut a piece of copper from the part where it turned silver and throw it in a jug then I poured some white vinegar on top of it, in minutes it turned into Copper color pink, so now that I am also convinced that this is copper, you can see it in the picture I posted below, why it turned into silver color is still a mystery

But let me ask again, this was the first time that I used copper in my potstill, I always use it in reflux mode, but I was recommended that using copper especially in the first pot still run will keep the sulphur, so I did that one other thing also, is just above the boiler I used a PTFE triclamp SS Screen gasket, so I am thinking if there could be some kind of a reaction also, because the parts fell from that point.

So why the mesh turned to silver ?

why some copper color particles fell from the packing ? or maybe this is sulphur and I did not understand it ?

Can someone please shed some light here really having a hard time understanding this.

[artooks]

One other question there is lots of different opinions as how to clean the copper mash, I always take them out give them a wash in the sink, the add to 50% + 50% vinegar solution, after every run, and then rinse them and use it, is this method ok or is it better to boil them at the last step, ( Some people recommended PBW but I do not like it ) so can you confirm my method or modify or change it to a different procedure, so that I understand that I am on the right path, also, some people say just give it a warm and cold wash and do not put in vinegar because the patine will be lost so what do you guys think ?

[der wo]

I think it was copper sulfide and oils, what let the material shine. I don't know what you haev distilled. But for example distilling corn washes produces shiny colors all the time. Looks like liquid metal, but is oils.

Cleaning copper IMO:
To get the reaction of the sulfides with the copper is easier when the copper is oxidized. But: How do you know your copper is dark because of copper oxide or because of copper sulfide? If it is copper sulfide, the copper will not work. This is the problem. And this is why I clean my packing with an acid:
- The packing is wet after cleaning with an acid (I use citric acid, because it's odorless). And it has much surface volume. So the patina (oxide) will build a fast within two days. I am sure, that I don't have copper sulfide on my packing and it is oxidized until the next run.
- The column and the stillhead I either only flush with water or perhaps a bit with odorless soap or soda. And sometimes I brush it a bit. Because copper oxide is mechanical more stable than copper sulfide. Would I clean the column with an acid it would need a long time to build up the patina again.

[artooks]

Hi Der Wo, I was distilling All-Bran. So are you suggesting to clean the packing with %50 white vinegar + % water should I continue doing this ? what you are saying is that you cannot know the darkening is whether due to sulifde or copper oxide so it is better to clean after every run ? is that correct

[Single Malt Yinzer]

That happens to me too. I assume it's from the still puking or some other contaminate from the wort. Is the discoloration at the bottom of the column or further up?

Other than a physical water only rinse after a run there isn't a great need to clean the mesh often. I've seen most recommendations at every 6 runs or so. I'll hit it with citric then PBW. I do every 6-8 runs.

[der wo]

Here a pic from rgreen2002. A typical matallic looking oil:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... &mode=view
Grain washes have such oils, especially corn. All Bran is grain, but not much grain. But probably it was enough.

As you can read, we all have different opinions. So probably it doesn't make such a great difference if you clean after each run or after six runs or only before neutral runs or spirit runs, or after very special smelling runs like peated malt. But yes, to clean the packing after each run with an acid is my opinion. If it smells like vinegar after rinsing, you should buy citric acid. Citric acid has also the advantage, that you can use boiling water without your whole apartment smells like vinegar after cleaning.

[artooks]

Thank you Der Wo, the picture you showed was exactly what I experienced but why it looks like metallic is there a special reason ?

[der wo]

Probably everything has a reason.
But I don't know it. Perhaps with hd google search and terms like "silver residue" or "metallic residue" you will find an answer.