Bombay Sapphire Gin Clone

[artooks]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to make a clone of Bombay Sapphire Gin, i know what botanicals they use, I also used Zymurgy Bob's formula
So I come up with this recipe Can someone please check the amounts and recipe I want to use boiler infusion I know that they use vapour infusion, so I would need some help to improve the recipe, thanks

- Juniper Berries: 20 grams
- Lemon Peel: 0.2 grams
- Coriander: 10 grams - Arifoğlu
- Angelica Root: 2 grams
- Orris Root: 0.2 grams
- Grains of Paradise: 2 grams
- Cubeb Berries: 2 grams
- Cassia Bark: 2 grams
- Almonds: 2 grams
- Liquorice: 2 grams

[NZChris]

If you want to make a clone and they use vapor infusion, use vapor infusion.

[artooks]

Thank you but first I need to get the amount of botanicals and botanicals right, do you think these amounts to be correct ?

[still_stirrin]

You didn't say how much spirit you're using. It's hard to evaluate the amount of botanicals without a unit of spirit measure.
ss

[artooks]

Hi SS, This will be for 1 litre 43 ABV for starting or you could suggest another spirit amount and ABV for ease of use.
This does not have to be 100 percent similar but what I want is to use these 10 bottanicals in the right amount to achieve
A good bold gin.

[still_stirrin]

Artooks,

Your numbers are proper according to Zymurgy Bob's formulation if your goal is 42.4 grams/liter, which seems high, especially when Bob suggests botanical ratios between 20 to 35 grams/liter. But, he also states that Bombay Sapphire is distilled using a Carter head (botanicals in the vapor path) which nets a lighter flavored gin.

If, after you distill the gin, the flavors are too pronounced, you could blend it back with neutral of the same proof to soften the flavors. Or, you could reduce the amount of botanicals used (per liter), which would reduce the cost to produce. Probably about the same difference.

So it seems your calculator used to figure the weights of botanicals is correct. I have an excel spreadsheet that I use and can quickly calculate adjustments from Zymurgy Bob's formulations.
ss

[still_stirrin]

To reduce to 30 g/l total botanicals, reduce the
X = 14.2 g
X/2 = 7.1 g
X/10 = 1.42 g
X/100 = 0.142 g

That'll get you to the 30 g/l with the chosen 10 botanicals (according to Zymurgy Bob).
ss

[artooks]

Thank you SS by the way I read Odin's easy gin thread a few times over and over again you and NzChris contributed a lot so
You have a good knowledge and experience about gin Originally Bombay uses vapour infusion I also
Have a short spool with two PTfe gasket screens which ı could use but do you think it would be a bolder gin to infuse them
İn the boiler ? Do you use Zymurgy bobs formulation ? Do you have good success with it ?

[still_stirrin]

(I) Have a short spool with two PTfe gasket screens which ı could use but do you think it would be a bolder gin to infuse them İn the boiler?

Well, as suggested by NZChris, if your goal is to clone Bombay Sapphire which is made by vapor infusion, then you would be best to vapor infuse the botanicals. And I believe your spool with a screen would work a treat. Surprisingly, the volume of column needed for infusion is not all that significant, especially for a few liters (2 to 5) of spirit.

Do you use Zymurgy bobs formulation ? Do you have good success with it?

Yes, I use it as a "building block" tool....not necessarily to clone a commercial gin, but rather to help me get the right balance of botanicals in the gin flavor that I like. Ironically, I prefer the simpler gins opposed to the complex gins. For me, gin is a refreshing summer time cooler...a beverage meant to relax after a busy day working in the yard. So Odin's recipe is a fantastic springboard.
ss

[artooks]

Thank you SS yes I have made Odin's gin 2 batches they are great but unfortunately my source of Juniper was very slim in terms of taste so this led the gin to be less powerful in Juniper but very mild which is also good so right now I am in Italy the first thing I did to go to a Botanical shop to purchase Juniper, Corriander and Cardamom feeling much happy.
How many Botanicals do you use SS ? and due to your experience which ones gives the best results to create a Bold Gin which is powerful in Juniper ?

[bitter]

This might give you an idea how they are making it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3MOZXjZ-_w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[artooks]

Thank you very much bitter, I wonder about all these secret recipes the companies sometimes I think if they are using this as a marketing stunt also, I tried Monkey 47 which is made with 47 Botanicals must say it felt like medicinal not liked it.

[NZChris]

One way to clone is to make a batch keeping good records, then adjust your next botanical bill after evaluating. Repeat as often as it takes. If you start with good quality known botanicals in the approximate ratios you already know about, it is highly unlikely that you will ever make a gin you don't like.

Another method is to make essences of each botanical, then blend them to get what you want. Once you have worked out the blend, you should be able to work out how much of each botanical was used to make that blend.

I did note in the video that they were using a Carter Head, so if you are serious about cloning it, you need to build one. A gin basket in a column lets reflux carry components down into the boiler, something that does not occur with a Carter Head.

[Kareltje]

I did note in the video that they were using a Carter Head, so if you are serious about cloning it, you need to build one. A gin basket in a column lets reflux carry components down into the boiler, something that does not occur with a Carter Head.

You have a point there! Did not think of it.
So we do not only have at least 10 different ingredients, but also the choice of putting all or some of them in the boiler, in the vapour path with reflux (gin box) and in the vapour path without reflux (Carter head).
So 3 places for 10 ingredients. Let us refrain from part of the juniper in the boiler and part in the ginbox.
That means 3^10 possible combinations. That is, with only this 10 botanicals and this 3 positions, 59,049 possible placements.
And than we did not even discuss the ratios of one ingredient against the other.

I got a compliment about one of my gins, so I think I stick to that recipe. I know there are a million other tastes and they have their own value in different uses (sipping alone, mixing, G&T, etc.), but I stick to this one, because it works.

[NZChris]

Another variable is time. Taking an hour to distill a liter of Odin's Easy Gin might seem like a slow distillation to us, but scale it up to the size stills in the video and putting their sized charge through the Carter Head in an hour would seem ridiculously fast. Does anyone know how long they take to do a run?

Also note that they don't macerate before distillation, so they miss out on any chemical interactions that would occur during maceration and in the boiler. I have no idea if that makes a difference.

My current project is Bombay Sapphire East, but I'm held up waiting for navel oranges to come into season.

[The Baker]

Hi,

NZ Chris said, " Taking an hour to distill a liter of Odin's Easy Gin might seem like a slow distillation."

True, but if you are using a little still it should be possible, at the same time, to run your normal still; so more efficient rather than less.

Geoff

[NZChris]

Hi,

NZ Chris said, " Taking an hour to distill a liter of Odin's Easy Gin might seem like a slow distillation."

True, but if you are using a little still it should be possible, at the same time, to run your normal still; so more efficient rather than less.

Geoff

That's if you have something to run in it. I have run gin at the same time as a spirit run. I've even considered running three stills plus the preheater at the same time, but I'm a hobby stiller and do it for the relaxation, not for the stress, so I quickly gave up on that idea.

The finest product I reckon I've made was a 1300ml Absinthe charge run in four hours after taking an hour to let it get up to temperature.

[artooks]

Thank you for all this valuable info guys, so I would like to ask SS

If i keep the botanicals at 30gr/lt would it make a better tasting gin also do you also think the amounts are Ok for all the 10 herbs.

About the carter head I look at Stilldragon they have a kit very expensive but is this the carter head you are talking about

http://stilldragon.com/index.php/gin-basket-kit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cannot see inside of this what does it do apart from keeping the botanicals in the vapour path ? As ai said i can achieve this
Effect by using a 2" PTFE Gasket Screen just wondering is it like a thumper ?

Thanks

[still_stirrin]

...If i keep the botanicals at 30gr/lt would it make a better tasting gin also do you also think the amounts are Ok for all the 10 herbs.

I have no way of knowing how fresh or aromatic your botanicals are and whether or not they compare to those used when making Bombay gins. You're kinda' asking a "how long is a piece of string" question.

But you should reread this response already given:

One way to clone is to make a batch keeping good records, then adjust your next botanical bill after evaluating. Repeat as often as it takes. If you start with good quality known botanicals in the approximate ratios you already know about, it is highly unlikely that you will ever make a gin you don't like.

Remember, the Bombay gin is delicate, so a large botanical dose will be out of character. Regardless, I believe this is an iterative process, since you're trying to clone a commercial example.

...About the carter head....(I) Cannot see inside of this what does it do apart from keeping the botanicals in the vapour path? As I said, I can achieve this effect by using a 2" PTFE Gasket Screen just wondering is it like a thumper?

Didn't like this answer????

...I did note in the video that they were using a Carter Head, so if you are serious about cloning it, you need to build one. A gin basket in a column lets reflux carry components down into the boiler, something that does not occur with a Carter Head.

I believe a spool in the vapor path will work OK provided it is not under a reflux condenser, ie - a potstill. The vapor will rise through the botanicals and there may be a little condensation at first until the botanicals are heated to the vapor temperature. But from then on, the essence will be carried over to the product condenser.
ss

[artooks]

Thanks SS whenI distill gin I remove my rc cap it and use it as a potstill so will do that lets see how much taste it will pass over. Waiting to collect all the botanicals to start.

[NZChris]

If the flavor is too intense because you used too much, blend it with the same ABV neutral.

For your clone, it is probably best to stick to one charge worth of botanicals, but I'm not cloning, I'm just using the same ingredients to make nice gin, so I stuff so much botanicals into mine that a liter of 45% gets diluted with 3.5l of 45% neutral, meaning that I make 4.5l of gin from a 1300ml charge run in a $5 saucepan and steamer from a charity shop.

[Kareltje]

Another variable!
Are you sure that diluting a high concentrated product with some neutral gives the same result as a slow distillation with more neutral to start with?

On the other hand: If you like the result, who cares about other procedures and techniques?

[NZChris]

I've never done a side by side for comparison and don't feel the need to. It makes nice gin in good quantity in a cheap still, plus the essence doesn't need to be diluted immediately and can be stored in a 1l bottle to be made up as I need it, or when more neutral becomes available if I've run out.

One experiment I haven't tried is loading the basket with non-macerated botanicals and doing a run taking four hours or longer. I might do that for my next East run.

[NZChris]

I've just reviewed my East recipe and it wasn't orange I was waiting for, it was lemon. My lemons have started coming ripe in the last week so I can do a run any time I like.

Something I have never done is use dried lemon peel and I don't know if there is any difference between dried and fresh. I didn't see fresh peel in the Carter Head in the video.

[kimbodious]

This video shows the operation of the SD GB4. An offset infusion chamber such as the Carter Head makes swapping baskets an easy task and avoids oils from the botanics building up in the boiler. There is a drain and tap at the bottom of the GB4 for drawing off the initial condensate and later on the condensate+oils

[NZChris]

I just poured myself my version of Bombay Sapphire East that was made as an essence two months ago and batched 10 minutes ago. 125ml of 82% essence, 375ml of 93% neutral, topped up with RO water and I have a liter of 45% gin

I don't have a bottle of the real thing to compare this to right now because it is bloody expensive around here, but mine is very nice with tonic ... and straight, (which is the only way I have tasted the real McCoy).

[artooks]

That is great NZChris, do you prefer making essences and then mix them to use it straight away, do you wait afterwards for 1-2 weeks or start drinking straight away, I remember reading Odin's Easy Gin, you were the one who did macerate for 20 min distil and start drinking which is like instant but I am sure it still needs a few weeks.
Which one do you prefer in making a gin do it by distillation or using it as an essence ?

[NZChris]

Maybe I've confused you by using the wrong word. I mean distilling a concentrated version of the gin made by multiplying the botanical bill two, three or four times for the same amount of neutral. This can be batched as whenever you like and you can choose the intensity of flavor you like when batching. Some industrial producers use up to ten times the botanical bill to cut down on export costs. The concentrate is then batched by the importer using local neutral and water.
I don't know if I have a preference yet. Making as concentrate makes a lot more gin with the same amount of time, cooling water and energy, plus it is using the same mini-pot that I developed my recipes with.

I've never bothered to attempt a side by side comparison of identical gins made several weeks apart. I reckon that if you want to drink it after five weeks, you should make enough that you don't drink it all before the time is up, then don't run yourself short.

[artooks]

This week I have completed the 5 week wait for Odin's Easy Gin, must sat it is really good, and I like it but I have been drinking it for the last 3 weeks 3 lts already finished now I left with 3 more ) this 3 lt is the only reason that I was afraid to finish it early

[NZChris]

I forgot to put the lemon grass in the basket when I did my B S East, so I did a run today to make lemon grass essence to add to the concentrate. The distillery smells really nice and floral after the run.

I'll do the blending tomorrow.