Sugar wash...

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

So, following successful testing and cleaning runs on my still I put together my first fermentation intended for distillation. I do some home brewing of beer, so the magic of fermentation is not a mystery, but a sugar wash is a little different in some regards. On with it...

From reading here (mostly) I decided to stay away from any kind of turbo, despite my old man using them for his neutrals and his suggestion to use them for myself. His neutrals smell somewhat solvent like where even the latter half of my sacrificial run smelled much more inviting. I wish to avoid 'off' smells and flavours.

My personal criteria is that the ingredients should be available from the local grocery store / feed supply while limiting the use of things like DAP or other magic powders I'd have to order from a supplier. I was cruising through some of the Tried and True Recipes and a few caught my eye. I looked at Birdwatcher's TPW, Deathwish's Wheat Germ, and some others including those of rad14701. Seemed though most had their positives, there were some minor issues encountered with each by some members at at least some point in time. Now, I'm not a betting man, more of a belt AND braces kind of guy. Despite that I went out on a bit of a limb and decided if one method worked most of the time then it would stand to reason that adding backup in the form of more than one method would be closer to 'sure fire'.

I'm open to constructive criticism and comments, so if anyone can offer any sage advice I'm all ears, metaphorically speaking. My first batch should be ready to run through the still soon, the actual ferment went very well which is why I'm giddy to share. I'm new to this hobby, so be cognizant of that when commenting. Here's my current recipe and method:

----------

Triple Threat Sugar Wash Recipe (Zed’s Bastard Child)

50L Water
10kg Sugar
2x Lemons (juice)
2x 375g Wheat Germ ***May try with just one package next***
1x 5oz can Tomato Paste
1x 675g Molasses (500mL carton)
1x 113g Jar of plain 'ol Baker's Yeast
~12oz Yeast Dregs (from prior fermentation), Used as added nutrients, if available
1x 1/4 to 1/2 tsp (pinch) Epsom Salts, used for foam control, optional
1x 1/2c (handful) of Crushed Oyster Shell for pH control, optional

Note: You may wish to split into two batches for better logistics related to materials handling.

Dissolve 10kg sugar in 10L water with the juice of two lemons and bring to a boil. Maintain a light boil for 30 minutes, covered. The intent is to invert at least some of the sugar.

Add wheat germ, tomato paste, molasses, yeast dregs, and epsom salts to 5L boiling water and return to a gentle boil. Reduce heat and allow to gently simmer for 90 to 120 minutes. Maintain volume by adding water as required, do not cover to help avoid boiling over, stir occasionally.

Put 35L of cold water into sanitized fermenter (I purchased a new 20 gallon trash can for the purpose), add 10L of sugar syrup mixture and add 5L of wheat germ mixture while still hot into the fermenter and mix well. Add crushed oyster shells if desired. The volumes prescribed should land close to a suitable pitching temperature, assuming your tap water is fairly cool.

Aerate the mixture for about 30 minutes prior to pitching yeast. This is a good time to read your original / starting gravity. It should come in at about 1.080 after temperature correction.

While aerating, re-hydrate yeast in a sample of the mixture and pitch when proofed and the fermenter temperature is <38C or <100F. My proofing was so rapid I had to pitch or end up with a mess on the counter.

You may optionally continue aeration for up to 30 minutes after pitching yeast. I do suggest a least some continued aeration following the pitching of the yeast.

Place lid on fermenter but for the first part of the ferment you may wish to just set the lid on and switch to an airlock later.

You can optionally cover / wrap the fermenter to maintain temperature. I found this was a large enough volume and the fermentation so fast it satyed surprisingly warm, to the point I was uncovering it for periods of time to control the temperature.

Allow to ferment until gravity reaches 1.000 or less and the wash tastes dry. This one may not go way down to an SG of 0.990 but it should get under 1.000 and I found the taste quite nice.

Rack into carboy and clear, though you may not get crystal clear with this wash. Just letting the solids settle should be enough, though individual preferences vary.

Distill by whatever means you personally prefer when cleared to your individual satisfaction.

----------

My current experience with this has been surprising to me, I hope it distills out even half as well as the fermentation went. I should be able to report back this weekend as I'm hoping to run it on Saturday.

My pitching temperature was a little high, but that did not seem to stop the yeast from propagating wonderfully. The wash's OG was maybe just a little over 1.080, but not enough to be overly concerned. I checked the progress more regularly than I likely should have, but I just had to know how this was going - inquiring minds want to know. The next one won't be so poked and prodded and just allowed to do what it does.

That said, within just a couple hours there was a nice thick krausen / barm on top. This had fallen by the next check about 20 hours later and was bubbling very vigorously (actually audible when the house was really quiet) off the bottom and the SG at this point had already dropped to 1.030 and only about 24 hours had elapsed.

Bubbling stayed audible through the next day and the SG dropped to 1.002 at about the 48 hour mark.

Vigorous bubbling subsided on the third day and the SG was down to 0.998 and it was at this point I decided to rack into carboys.

Activity has almost stopped and there's lots of trub settling now in the bottom. I have shaken once as a degassing measure but it still seems a little effervescent. SG has dropped a little more, about 0.996 now but it looks to be really winding down and does not taste sweet. Hoping to run this in a few days.

Comments?
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by Pikey »

That was quick ! - 5kg in 25 litres is what I use and just a speck more molasses and you'd be getting close to "Bacardi" in your hearts. I don't think you needed the molasses for fermentation assist though. What still you putting it through ?

I think you'll be liking it - not entirely neutral perhaps - but a nice "close" :thumbup:

Oh and I wouldn't bother settling it out - turbo needs to clear - we don't - just run it ! :)

[Edit - but I don't use bread yeast, maybe with THAT density of yeast, you do need y=to clear it a bit - maybe one of our "Bread yeast regulars" can advise on that one ]
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Thanks Pikey.

I thought it pretty fast myself. My thoughts on the molasses was just more resources on which the yeast may feast, though not the primary source of course.

My still is a Nixon-Stone type reflux unit, though I'm of the understanding one can run it in such a way as to get pot still type product out with a little less overall character. My intent with this one is a fully refluxed neutral.

Based on many of rad's comments I'm not going to stress the clearing too much, just allow a settling period.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
Still Life
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm
Location: Great State Of Missouri

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by Still Life »

Hey zed it looks like good measurements all around (after conversion to pounds and gallons and cups so I could read it because we're behind the rest of the world).
And mainly, it fermented out!

I am an advocate of the oyster shells. Mine do dissolve, and I've never had a crash.
I always invert the sugar, too. Debatable procedure, but I do it anyway.
Glad to see the oft-neglected aeration that so many people fail to mention.

This should be an interesting 'bastard' alright. But good, I'd bet.

Looking forward to the follow up. (I recommend a spirit then strip run.)
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Yes Still Life, happy to see it ferment out and fast too.

Locally a 50lb bag of oyster shells is only like $16, so not exactly expensive insurance.

I haven't seen quite the same recipe or combination and thought for the cost to try it, why not?

I was planning on doing a direct spirit run this time and then doing another few ferments the same and trying the stripping / spirit run method afterwards. I figure I'd need more then one ferment to have enough low wines to make a worthwhile spirit run.

I know patience is a virtue but I also want to see for myself the differences afforded with such techniques.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by Pikey »

A single run through a reflux - or even a pot :wink: will give you drinkin' hooch off that recpe :)
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Pikey wrote:A single run through a reflux - or even a pot :wink: will give you drinkin' hooch off that recpe :)
Sounds like a plan :thumbup:
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by Pikey »

Come back an' tell us how it feels :wink:
User avatar
Still Life
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm
Location: Great State Of Missouri

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by Still Life »

Pikey wrote:A single run through a reflux - or even a pot :wink: will give you drinkin' hooch off that recpe :)
Sure... if you want to get all fancy about it. :P LOL
(I've had the tomato come over in a single pot still. But that could just be me.)
zapata
Distiller
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zapata »

I'll second tomato sometimes being detectable, but mild and unidentifiable. Molasses on the other I have never been able to strip away, and it is identifiable. Maybe not in such low amounts, I guess you'll see. I'm sure it will be good and clean, just wouldnt ever put molly in a neutral my self. Nutritionally it is not needed with everything else you have.

I have used bread yeast for neutrals, though I prefer 1118. I belive in 2 sometimes mutually exclusive practices for neuts. 1. Run as clean a wash as possible with as little yeast/trub as possible 2. Run as soon as possible so no microbes can contribute. So I crash cool for 24 hrs as soon as I notice it's below 1.000. If that wasnt convenient then I'm really not sure if run fast, or run clean would take priority.

Honestly though, these hair splitting details are a small part of dialing things in. You're already heaps ahead of the turbo racket!
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

I admit that the inclusion of molasses was nutritionally debatable, but the goal was a multi-pronged attack on ensuring a good fermentation.

I will likely give it a shot at a later time with my rig run in 'pot still mode' and see what the flavours are like when allowed to deliberately carry over but for now I will see how neutral this one is running in full reflux mode. Some hints of flavour will be fine, just looking for a nice clean drop.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Ran my first sugar wash yesterday. Went alright, there were some observations and experiences to share.

There must have been a little continued fermentation activity as the SG did continue to drop, slowly, to reach an FG of 0.992. It really appeared to clear in the last day or two prior to the run and the SG was truly stable.

Will post a new 'My First...' thread about what I learned during the run. Thanks to the HD community for providing guidance in getting started in this unique hobby.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Just as a point of reference, I started my second round of this recipe and got very consistent results.

OG was 1.080 and SG is <1.000 in 72 hours. Gave a stir to degas and will leave it for a full week from pitching to racking. Will run this batch sometime over our Thanksgiving weekend (Cdn). So far this particular concoction seems to be working well.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

It had been pointed out that the inclusion of molasses would likely be detrimental to producing a neutral spirit. I have made subsequent runs without the molasses and adding an extra can of tomato paste that yield a very similar fermentation progression and a much more neutral spirit overall. Not that the first couple batches were bad, just not as neutral as the ones done later that did not use molasses.

Here's my updated recipe and method:

----------

Zed’s Bastard Child

50L Water
10kg Sugar
2x Lemons (juice), or 1/2 cup (250mL) white vinegar, or 2 tbsp (30mL) citric acid
2x 375g (13 oz) Wheat Germ
2x 5oz can Tomato Paste
1x 113g (4 oz) Jar of plain 'ol Baker's Yeast
2 cups (500mL) Yeast Dregs (from prior fermentation), Used as added nutrients, if available
1x 1/4 to 1/2 tsp (pinch) Epsom Salts, used for foam control, optional
1x 1 cup (250mL) of Crushed Oyster Shell for pH control, optional but highly recommended

Note: You may wish to split into two batches for better logistics related to materials handling. I don't have a pot that can hold 10L water and 10kg sugar nor a burner that would boil that in a reasonable time. I suspect many others won't either. I elect to do the sugar in two equal batches.

Dissolve 10kg sugar in 10L water with the juice of two lemons (or alternative acid source) and bring to a boil. Maintain a light boil for 30 minutes, covered. The intent is to invert at least some of the sugar and provide a specific heated volume.

Add wheat germ, tomato paste, yeast dregs, and epsom salts to 4L boiling water and return to a gentle boil. Reduce heat and allow to gently simmer for 90 to 120 minutes. Maintain volume by adding water as required, do not cover to help avoid boiling over, stir occasionally. My experience has been that a slow simmer can be covered to avoid any significant volume loss but should be checked regularly.

Put 36L of cold water into sanitized fermenter (I purchased a new 20 gallon / 77L trash can for the purpose), add 10L of sugar syrup mixture and add 4L of wheat germ mixture while hot into the fermenter and mix well. Add crushed oyster shells for pH buffering. The volumes prescribed should land at or very close to a suitable pitching temperature, assuming your tap water is fairly cool.

Aerate the mixture for about 15 to 30 minutes prior to pitching yeast. This is a good time to read your original / starting gravity. It should come in no higher than 1.080 after temperature correction, usually a little lower.

While aerating, re-hydrate yeast in about a litre of the mixture and pitch when proofed and the fermenter temperature is <38C or <100F. My proofings have been so rapid I have to pitch quickly or end up with a mess on the counter.

You may optionally continue aeration for up to 30 minutes after pitching yeast. I do suggest a least some continued aeration following the pitching of the yeast with my experience suggesting 15 minutes is adequate.

Place lid on fermenter but for the first part of the ferment you may wish to just set the lid on and switch to an airlock later.

The ferment should be so active for the first 24 hours that it should not need to be insulated, unless the ambient temperature is more than a few degrees cooler than typical room temperature. Insulate the fermenter after the first day to maintain temperature in the latter part of the ferment. Stir after 72 hours and fermentation has visibly stopped to help degas and promote clearing.

Allow to ferment until gravity reaches 1.000 or less and the wash tastes dry. I find this is hitting an SG of 1.000 after only 72 hours. I have been reaching an FG after a full week of 0.992. This one may not go way down to an SG of 0.990 but it should get well under 1.000. I have been leaving it for a full week in the primary to get it as dry and clear as possible in the prior to racking to carboys.

Rack into carboy and clear, though you may not get crystal clear with this wash. Just letting the solids settle should be enough, though individual preferences vary. I allow a second week of clearing in a cooler area and find it quite acceptable for charging my still.

Distill by whatever means you personally prefer when cleared to your individual satisfaction.

----------

Just some minor tweaks and the missus and I find this more to our liking already.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Post Reply